Faith without religion.
Anxiety, Perfection, and Treasures: Unpacking Matthew 5 with Shawn and Delaney
anxiety, perfection, context
In a recent episode of “Dallas Talk,” Shawn and his dad delve into the complexities of Matthew chapter five, exploring the profound teachings of Jesus. Shawn, a lifelong Christian reading the Bible for the first time, poses insightful questions to his dad, an amateur theologian. They discuss the concept of perfection as described by Jesus, emphasizing that true perfection is about loving those who despise you, reflecting God’s disposition towards humanity.
The conversation touches on the Greek word “teleotace,” meaning complete, not perfect, highlighting that completeness in faith comes from having God within us. They explore how love plays a crucial role in achieving this completeness, as faith empowers believers to love as described in Matthew 5.
Shawn and his dad also discuss the importance of context in understanding biblical teachings, particularly when interpreting passages that have been historically misunderstood or misapplied. They emphasize the need to consider the broader scriptural context to avoid misinterpretations.
The discussion transitions to Matthew chapter six, where they examine the teachings on anxiety and the importance of trusting God to provide for one’s needs. They reflect on how these teachings remain relevant today, offering wisdom for both believers and non-believers.
Throughout the episode, Shawn and his dad engage in a thoughtful dialogue, exploring the personal and subjective nature of faith and the challenges of systematizing spiritual teachings. They conclude with a reflection on the enduring relevance of Jesus’ teachings, as they prepare to explore chapter seven in their next discussion.
Podcast Transcript:
welcome to dallas.talk doctor and I’m
Dad thanks for starting it when I’m
drinking I’m Dad hi Dad oh I’m down
um
and I’ve been a Christian my whole life
never read the Bible reading it for the
first time asking my dad questions
please
a theologian
okay amateur
so
um Matthew chapter five I just have one
more question yeah there’s lots of
questions that could be asked but
um
okay so he goes he talks a lot about
how we will not we can’t fulfill the law
we mentioned earlier like committing
adultery if you lost you’re guilty and
you deserve this harsh punishment if
someone and then it goes into proactive
things if someone tries to take your
coat give your cloak to take them out
go-to with them and then he ends with
love your enemies pray for those who
first keep you
um
perfect as your father which is yeah
that’s what I’m trying to get to be
perfect as your heavenly father
as your heavenly father is perfect and
I’m just trying to identify like we
can’t we can obviously infer I feel like
it’s a leading question but we can infer
that
to be perfect means to love those who
despise you like that’s literally the
definition of perfection and backwards
are like examples of how to do that yeah
um and that would suggest actually to me
as a disposition that God has to those
who hate him
like right absolutely like that
absolutely
Jesus is teaching us to love those who
persecute us and return good with evil
it’s absolutely his uh dispensate
disposition he sends Jesus says the rain
to fall on the just and the unjust He
blesses all you know we see the most
wicked people on Earth being blessed in
many ways hell family money Fame
whatever He blesses everybody uh but
it’s the Kingdom’s destination of who
are his by faith that he really will
bless through them being his heirs
I see by the way just to let you know
that word perfect at the end be
therefore perfect is used by people like
the Mormons yeah and so they go about
trying to establish perfection in their
lives they want to look perfect live
Perfect by their own strength and uh the
word is teleotace in the Greek and it
means to be complete
to be complete not to be perfect because
no one’s perfect that whole teaching he
gave was to show the Jews you’re going
to fail you’re never gonna get into
heaven yeah without me be complete yeah
how would you just how would you define
complete then I would Define it as you
want to be complete in what God has made
you to be that means you can’t achieve
that state without him in you you were
made Adam and Eve were made three parts
he they he formed clay body he breathed
his breath into them they became or Adam
became a living Soul that’s three in one
Spirit soul body to be complete you have
to have him in you to be complete and
that comes by faith on his son
hmm
and love like how does Love play into
that completeness love comes by when you
become a complete person by faith
when you return to the state that God
made human beings Body Soul Spirit by
faith Christ moves into you you are then
empowered to love and do the things he
describes there in Matthew 5. I just
wouldn’t like that’s not how I would
interpret it though how would you
interpret it he’s saying he’s like
giving this whole thing about how to
love and then saying be complete as your
heavenly father is complete which would
imply to me that love is how you’re
complete yeah I would okay so that’s
fine but really the whole point of that
teaching is to get those Jews to say we
can’t do it okay yeah we can’t do it
okay because all those things that he
says no one can do that
wait but also really quick you’re
describing complete for us as Body Soul
Spirit having all of it but as your
heavenly father is complete yeah which
he doesn’t have Body Soul Spirit does he
well he ha he’s the father
he uh he speaks he has a body in through
his son and he has a holy spirit oh okay
so you could I’m not saying you should
but you could make that jump and it
makes it make sense but to get back to
the real heart of your question
we aren’t complete as our father in
Heaven is complete in our Natural State
you have to come to Christ to get that
completion set and then you grow and
mature to love as your father does I
think all of that is included in that in
that statement
lot missing there
yeah and a contextual understanding of
the word helps you what you’re gaining
right now helps you to be able to
decipher what he means in these very
obtuse statements yeah it’s hard it’s
like really hard to know though because
I could see how context would help but
then I could also see how context would
support Mormons being perfect sure like
taking it a different so like I’m led to
be like okay what does it say literally
right there and that’s how I should take
it and not how someone else describes
perfect and then I would read perfect
here as that you know but I would say to
you well then was that written to you
and I would and you would have to say no
because we can’t read the gospels and
think it was to us
it’s given those messages are given in
the context of a people under the law
okay and so that’s why the Mormons can’t
take it because Jesus was not speaking
the Mormons he was speaking to Jews and
Jesus purpose in that message was to get
them to stop relying on their own uh
Perfection and to rely on the only way
that they can become perfect which is
through him
that becomes understandable in the
context of the whole scripture
and so this is a great thing that’s
happening right now because you kind of
represent the Mormons who would read
that passage and run off with it not
taken into context what Paul and Peter
and James and John all say later to give
these things context does that make
sense yeah but it’s with the as with the
intention to actually take it
contextually like it seems like it’s
like reading into something by
like reading into this text what other
people wrote yes you have to do that
when you’re reading the Bible or else
you will read a passage I mean if you
just take a single passage and you rip
out all the con all the rest of the
Bible you will do things like kill
people I mean you gotta take the you’ll
get taken I am to some degree but just
in this just at this point right but
you’ve got to get the the whole of the
word behind you in order to under and
this is why I am often misunderstood
because people think that I I’m just
taking something and they don’t get it
but I’ve spent my life learning the
whole context so that I could better
interpret yeah are we out of time
already no no no she has problems with
time keeping yeah clearly
but
I’m it’s
I just have fun picking on people
um
yeah and I didn’t realize a lot of this
stuff I’ll just mention that like I’ve
always thought were like cliches to
describe God but they’re written here
like is it really love
if you like have an affinity for that
person yeah what I forget how it’s said
but
um but the love is when you are
persecuted yeah like that’s when if you
love Brethren not love you is it really
loved yeah what’s the big deal it’s
literally said yeah like oh dang that’s
pretty yeah we think we’re so great
because we get along with people yeah I
thought that was kind of just something
that we inferred from the text that it’s
it’s just specifically said which is
yeah and that’s sobering isn’t it yeah
it is because remember going back to the
Beatitudes we mourn oh and and that can
that morning can come when you are a
very mature astute because when you’re
confronted by someone who doesn’t give
you what you want to love them is hard
and when you fail you mourn again and
you’re meek and so it’s a process of him
doing with us in the the idea is submit
yourself to his hands his spirit and let
him do it and instead what we say is no
I’m gonna do it my way right okay
mom great stuff
it kind of leads us into chapter six
which I just have a couple questions
bigger questions like this okay
um that are sort of in line
um I have to bring up but he goes on a
whole spiel about
the Jesus feels
uh how
see how like authenticity is
like
um
he knows how men have received the
reward when they let attention of men be
known when they do something righteous
like that’s your reward don’t let your
left hand know what your right hand is
doing showing prayer outwardly as
hypocritical
and then he says steer clear of the
inter petitions as Gentiles do because
they think that they should be heard for
them yeah and then it says then do the
Lord’s Prayer it says the Lord’s Prayer
which is the most repeated prayer in
history isn’t that funny I do not
understand the justification for that
the justification is it’s taking
everything in context he’s saying don’t
let there be vain repetitions and then
he says if you’re gonna pray pray like
this and that’s an example on how to
pray it’s not a prayer to be said
it make why do people say it because
religion I’m sorry our Catholic our
Catholic friends came in and said Jesus
said pray this way so we will do that
not looking at the context of look I’m
going to tell you pray like this meaning
thank your father and and do this right
and let it be his will uh be done not
our own but they take it literally and
so we have religion and we have
thousands billions of people who have
recite that prayer it’s so it’s
literally this sentence before it says
that’s context sister great catch well I
do you’re a very uh I don’t mean to use
this time to compliment my daughter but
you are a uh Discerning reader which is
good
everyone who pursues God diligently
should be a very Discerning reader yeah
well I mean
but really like Mormons do it Mormons
have a structure that sort of
Harkens back to what he says here but
somehow like I don’t see that as as bad
for some reason it’s not as bad uh
Joseph Smith was like why are you know
and so that’s why you don’t find the
Lord’s Prayer
in Mormonism but they do take the
template so to speak and they borrow and
so they teach their people to thank him
and ask him and do it in the name of
Jesus Christ so yeah they take that a
little bit better
so
okay
um another thing about this kind of back
to what we’re talking about in chapter
five though is that there’s a lot he
talks a lot about like anxiety
here be anxious for the things of this
world yeah
which is so strange to me like anxiety
feels like a modern problem
to me I don’t know why
um I thought I and I always thought that
like it’s just another one of those
things that’s written that I did not
know was written I thought it was just
like a placation to Christians like
don’t be anxious trust God but it’s
literally like yeah
a tactic to be more wise In This World
by like not having like anxiety doesn’t
get you anywhere no that’s what he’s
saying like it’s a it’s like a tool to
live better or something but then I also
wondered if you could just
like I feel like that is
the consensus from non-believers too
like a non-believer is definitely on
board with
that anxiety gets you nowhere and you
know yeah it’s good wisdom psychology
sure yeah good wisdom yeah what would
you I just wonder what you say to that
my insight to that would be everything
that is taught in there is pointing to
Believers to choose to trust God to
supply their needs so it’s really an
appeal to Faith you believe he will take
care of you so don’t be anxious for this
problem or that in the world might be
like I don’t care I just won’t pay my
bills I’m not going to be anxious you
know it’s really hard to do that’s why
we smoke so much pot is you know or take
drugs or everything because it’s really
hard to do right so he’s saying look to
God to take care of you he will supply
that’s how I would see it and you just
think that someone’s saying that in the
world now is just not doing it to the
best that they can because I was all
involved right there’s no God for them
so they’re just like you know Namaste
you know whatever and and they’re saying
you know peace out it’s okay and I think
that we have that capacity to some
extent you know but his point in
teaching it is to say especially to them
in that age don’t be anxious God Will
Supply your needs you know trust in him
and he does I feel like
something I’ve had a hard time with is
that like looking at it empirically when
you see like okay these people do this
and it looks like this these people do
this and it looks like this before I
know it in my heart
personally it looks to me like a
Christian saying I’ll give God my
anxiety
results in the same as someone who’s not
Christian saying I’ll give something
else my anxiety sure which means it
doesn’t always work because of our flesh
the answer for Christians is it’s
because of our flesh we’re not fully
doing it to the best we can but like the
the
outside appearance is that they both
work sure as good as one another to to
most people they do but the uh in my
experience and I can only speak to that
relative to this personal thing of the
world versus Believers is
um
I find it to be a mistake that when we
find Christians who just said just God
we’ll just handle it and not live up to
the contextual examples of Paul saying
you know if you don’t work you won’t eat
you know we have to we have to balance
these things out and so when you find
Christians you to say I don’t have a job
but God will provide that’s that’s
that’s ridiculous right so then we come
to the world saying I’m not going to
have anxiety about this and we have
Christians saying I’m not going to have
anxiety about this the Christian’s
reason for not having anxiety is they
trust God to help them in this life the
person in the world who says I won’t
have anxiety is they’re helping
themselves and it’s so it’s self-will
versus God’s Will and that is like the
demarcation line in everything with
scripture whose will and but I feel like
that it
of what I’m maybe trying to get at is
that that’s a really really really
really really personal thing yes that
like no one knows about like subject
including myself yeah like I don’t even
know if I’m giving it to God or myself
sometimes oh no it’s brutal never know
yeah I guess I’m just trying to get to
that point where like no one knows how
to give it to God either we wonder I
wonder myself this morning I’m thinking
about our our promo what we’re trying to
do and I don’t know so we go to him and
we ask him and and we trust that he will
lead us and when he doesn’t you wait
patiently you know and if he does you
say man it was great so it is a process
yeah and it is subjective and I’m I feel
like I’m constantly working on the ideas
of if it can be systematized or not and
I just think
like systems at large are antithetical
yeah just lit like it cannot it’s
literally person to person it’s person
to person and religions have all tried
to systematize it yeah and
I get the inclination sure I think like
there is there there are like Tendencies
toward this material way or that
material to be better we talked about
that a lot but like then I go to systems
fail completely and we should just be
anarchistic and like right you know and
in some ways I think you should I Think
Jesus teaches that in other ways you
shouldn’t and I mean the best way for me
to kind of explain it which I’m going to
refer to a secular reference here is uh
Hermann Hess wrote a book called the
glass beads game and in that book he
describes this very strange game that
sounds like it’s chess
and checkers and this and this and it’s
on one level this level this level this
level and there’s all these pieces that
can become alive and they integrate and
that’s what we’re trying to to
systematize you’re not going to do it no
and you’re an individual and God’s going
to work with you in the way he will work
with you you have a different mind than
I have even though we’re related and and
he’s going to work differently with
somebody from Mexico who has a different
genetics and background in history so we
make the mistake of trying to
systematize this because it gives people
comfort then they don’t have to study it
and think about it subjectively for
themselves but it also gives like
supposedly positive things to the world
absolutely sure it’s hard because
they’re it’s not all bad No in fact but
remember the fruit of knowledge is good
and evil in the garden it produces good
things but are those things the will of
God and and and will those things bring
you closer to God and will you enter his
kingdom as a result of following the
fruit of the tree of Good and Evil and
God said to eat of that you’re gonna die
you know so there is his will or there’s
our will and that’s really what we’re
talking about
are we done through that chapter all
right I have like I had a lot of things
that I just wrote down that I really
liked about this chapter like favorite
favorite passages
lay yourself lay up for yourself
Treasures in Heaven where neither moth
nor rust death consume your thieves do
not break through nor steal like that
I’m realizing more that like
he Jesus really speaks to like
very specific conditions of like
Civilization to like appeal to us like
Roth yeah Roth moth and
rusties thieves yeah stealing like these
are things that plague my everyday still
not to apply it to myself but like you
should and you know he is called the
master teacher because he uses those
analogies to get us to relate oh so I
can lay out Treasures here or if they
can be stolen or I can lay them up in
heaven and then the question becomes
well what Treasures are in heaven
opens up there’s a whole new concept or
a conversation
well we’re over time
chapter seven up next see that
