Faith without religion.
Challenging Faith and Humility: Unpacking Jesus’ Interactions in Chapter 15
Pharisees, Heart, Faith
In this engaging discussion, Shawn and Delaney delve into the complexities of faith, humility, and the teachings of Jesus, as depicted in the Bible. The conversation begins with the Pharisees questioning Jesus about his disciples not washing their hands, to which Jesus responds by quoting Isaiah, emphasizing the importance of genuine faith over mere lip service. This leads to a broader discussion about the nature of faith and the significance of having a heart for God.
Shawn explains that true faith is not about feelings but about making a conscious choice to follow God’s will, even when it doesn’t come naturally. He highlights the paradox of faith, where those who have sinned greatly often have a deeper love for God because they recognize their need for His grace. This contrasts with those who see themselves as righteous and, therefore, less in need of divine intervention.
The conversation also touches on the story of the Canaanite woman, whose faith is tested by Jesus. Despite being initially likened to a dog, her persistence and humility lead to her daughter’s healing. This story illustrates the importance of humility and the willingness to seek God, even when it seems He is not immediately responsive.
Throughout the discussion, Shawn emphasizes the role of humility in one’s relationship with God, suggesting that pride often hinders people from truly connecting with the divine. He also points out that suffering and difficulty can be pathways to deeper faith, as they challenge individuals to rely on God rather than their own understanding.
In conclusion, the dialogue between Shawn and Delaney offers a thought-provoking exploration of faith, encouraging listeners to reflect on their own spiritual journeys and the role of humility and perseverance in their relationship with God.
Podcast Transcript:
recording chapter 15.
okay Pharisees call out Jesus for not
washing for the disciples not washing
their hands
um and Jesus replies to the same
principle yeah oh and she didn’t tell me
anymore
it was just a reference
we’re recording so they say your
disciples don’t wash don’t wash Jesus
surprises the same principle and cites
Isaiah these people honor me with their
lips their hearts are far from me they
worship me in vain their teachings are
merely human roles
do you know the circumstances of what
Isaiah was saying there
oh it probably I don’t know but Isaiah
was Old Testament words like that often
had a place at that day and often had a
prophetic voice for the future yeah
Jesus is borrowing just from it
well did Isaiah prophesy of you when he
said yeah so he’s saying you know Isaiah
was saying you guys all talk the big
talk you know with your lips you just
honor me and say you love me but your
hearts are far from me but what like how
does that actually happen in Isaiah like
is Isaiah in
that time literally saying there will be
people in Jesus’s time not well I don’t
know that he knows he’s saying that okay
he is writing that he just writes
probably he either just writes it or
he’s talking about the Jews of his day
too okay okay okay yeah okay but it’s
like a picture for you later okay
but you don’t know that for about this
one in particular I don’t know what he
was Isaiah was specifically referring to
that caused him to do it but jesus takes
his writings and applies it to them then
too okay
um uh
this is was also curious to me that
um there’s so much about someone’s heart
being there
for their actions to matter or something
like where their heart was but then I I
get that mixed up with like love being
about where your heart isn’t kind of
would you have any thoughts on that yeah
if your heart is for God
that’s the first great commandment okay
then even if your heart isn’t for your
fellow man
but you love them
in the spite of their difficulties and
failures it proves that your heart is
toward God because the Second Great
commandment is to love neighbor itself
so
if your heart
is far from him
you’ll you you won’t do what he wants
you to do
so you have a heart that’s for him first
and then even if your heart isn’t for
the others you start to do his will
because He commands it and then in time
your heart will start to soften toward
those you do it too
what about okay soon
maybe the struggle like Mom has a
struggle and I do sometimes where
about this and I think it’s actually
that we struggle with the heart for God
part like the heart for people
like
somebody is difficult to but
um
like
I think both of I
both of us
both of us have a hard time doing like
knowing we want to love God not having
that feeling in your heart but choosing
that as like do you know what I mean and
it’s still Superior okay to act
uh
I forget the the big terms for it but
there is a term for doing God’s will no
matter what mm-hmm whether you feel like
it or you do it out of love and
gratitude
you are doing his will that’s the first
thing to go by and then everything else
flows from that
because I it but it’s yeah it’s just
it’s like
paradoxical because Faith seems like it
happens when you don’t have the heart
for God or
not the heart for God but like the
Natural Instinct for it faith is the
choice of It’s Always a choice faith is
not a Feeling So This Heart for God
thing how it meant it’s a it’s a tricky
thing I guess to me I know it’s like
really instinctual and it’s there and
well here’s how the scripture explains
why there are some who don’t have a
natural heart for God and there’s others
who do this is what Jesus taught so okay
for me he says the people who have the
most sin will love me the most
and if you don’t have a lot of sin your
gratitude for being saved or whatever if
you see yourself as being pretty good
your gratitude will not be great and he
says it he teaches it and it’s true you
know so if we use your mom for example
she has come to see her faults more
glaring over the years but she used to
be I don’t know any I obey the law well
when you obey the law what need do you
have for God or a savior to pull you up
from the ocean when you’re sinking you
never sink why because you make good
decisions
and and you’d never step out on that
boat right and so you become judgmental
of people who step out on the boat
because they were stupid and you would
never do that so that’s how it works but
if you come to see yourself as capable
of doing all things and God’s Still
Loving You
then your heart for Him will change and
then you will start to treat others that
way
get it yeah there’s there’s a pair of in
fact over the years as I’ve counseled
people if they come to me and they say
I’m starting to distance myself from
from God it’s usually because they see
themselves as less needing of him than
what they really need and I think people
even on the physiological level I mean
we can get eye cancer eyebrow cancer
nose cancer lip cancer I mean you can
have a stroke every I mean there’s every
organ can stop we rely on him for so and
protection yeah so but we forget all
that yeah yeah it’s really stupid that’s
what it’s talking about and so so I’m
sorry I’m belaboring this but it’s
humility
and so really what gets in the way of
that is pride yeah yeah it’s human Pride
to think well you know God yeah and
that’s why the Sinners love him so much
yeah but it’s it’s hard
yeah that’s a tricky thing because like
Sinners supposedly like feel the
consequences more like materially and
like if you you know obey the law you’re
like kind of nice to people you don’t
really get infected like whatever it is
you’re still like horribly failing in a
bunch of ways you’re proud you’re all
these things but like you don’t have
this like visceral like sent to prison
or killed someone or these like guilts
that like we should have them but like
the world doesn’t punish you as much
it’s harder it’s harder it’s hard and
that’s why Jesus and the Pharisees had
such difficulty because they obeyed the
law
and and yet they didn’t realize that God
it seems to me
he would rather have you even though he
doesn’t want this sleep with a hundred
people and have a kind heart then be a
morally pure and be a
wants the heart
and that is repeated over and over and
over again through most stories
and when people don’t have that heart
it’s usually because they think
I’m okay
so with a burp
I’m okay
and so what goes into someone’s mouth is
not what the files them but what comes
out yeah I imagine that was very
Blasphemous oh yeah um
yeah and you use that one as someone who
goes by physical laws to make themselves
worthy yeah and smoke yeah I have found
I used to be so prejudiced against
smokers I have found some of the kindest
people smoke yeah my favorite people are
smokers every single one is a smoker
they are unique and I judge them from
what went into the mouth
you know and and we could probably say
that about a lot of things datter that’s
her grandmother who passed away she used
to say the horrors are so nice
to the horrors are the nicest people
that’s
why you said that yeah
she’s a hard ass
it’s a dry Mom nuts
the Tuesday
that’s so funny
um
I also thought it was he like literally
describes it could it’s like in
principle what goes into the mouth isn’t
what defiles but he says what goes into
the mouth passes through you and leaves
like it has nothing to do with anything
yeah which I thought was pretty good
yeah yeah when you think about really
what could tobacco do yeah to your soul
to your not nothing nothing it can do
something to your brain that might
affect your decisions your decision yeah
like that’s what that’s what the things
that go into you can do but like it’s
not a one-to-one
yeah
um okay so then there’s this parable of
Swords every plant that the father has
not planted will be pulled up by the
roots they are blind guides that lead
the blind it’s not a parable but he’s
he’s describing the Pharisees
um and then I thought it was so weird
though that
the
disciples don’t really know what that
means and and so as he’s telling them
that what comes out of the mouth is what
defiles you he goes are you so dull
as he’s saying Jesus is radical man and
I love that about him because it shows
that when you speak the truth
even though there’s colloquialisms and
we might not know what that really meant
it could have been very you know but he
says some harsh stuff and I love it
because you know if you’re trying to
save people from destruction you got to
yell at them right or whatever so dull
are you so dull yeah oh yeah that’s
really good it it could be something
that it it’s clearly like not what we
think it is but still it’s pretty good
um okay Canaanite woman’s story now this
one is very strange to me so her
daughter is demon possessed she begs her
Jesus for help
first Jesus doesn’t even answer her he
doesn’t even talk to her and he says
he’s only sent for loss she perhaps
Israel
which I we’ve talked about on this and
like that’s been made very clear to me
that he’s just for the Jews but then
he continues on to further liken her to
a freaking dog saying it’s not right to
toss food to for children to dogs but
then
she says even dogs eat crumbs to the
master’s table and he says she has faith
and he’ll Grant her Disney she has
greater faith in all of Israel yeah
sorry I I paraphrased too poorly yes
yeah
wait
why am I missing
oh great is your faith be it done for
you as you desire
so what do you think your daughter is
healed instantly I can brutal yeah it’s
a lot of things like I can see why
people don’t like the notion that he’s
just for the Jews because he does things
like that and he does it more than this
like he steps out of the Jewish
territory
so I don’t really know how to reconcile
that and also it’s really weird to me
that he just makes the analogy so severe
children to dogs I don’t love it but no
no and I think it lends to the idea that
it’s a true record because if you’re
trying to give a sanitized Vision
version of a messiah you’d want to be
all kind of friendly to everybody yeah
he was making a point there and it is a
profound one and it’s still applicable
today one
he was testing her to see if she to to
for her to show that she cared and she
really did trust in him and for her to
walk up and just you know assume that
she had the right to do that to the
Messiah for the Jews he was going to
call that into the question and see
maybe that would just drive her away you
know but when it didn’t she he was able
to say your faith is great and he does
pay attention to her and he does love
her enough to heal her daughter yeah but
that initial thing
it’s almost like if somebody who’s been
a horrible person who gets themselves
arrested for something and they’re in
deep trouble and they really don’t care
about God but they call out to God and
say help me get out of this please his
response might be similar to Jesus like
why would I even respond to you you know
and if the guy persists and then God
would say all right okay so that’s kind
of the setting for it that makes sense
and by the way dogs were hated
so it was a really rude thing to say
but it shows it’s not always about the
words it’s about the intent oh my gosh
you cannot
do yourself like that holy
okay so you get it though yeah and then
he does heal her daughter right he goes
to Samaria which was they hated the
Samaritans he does the same thing with a
woman it’s in John though it’s not in
Matthew is that the good good no no
different that’s not Parable but he
meets a woman at a well one he talks to
her he’s not even supposed to as a Jew
and he calls her out and she believes on
him and then you know it’s good so yeah
okay
um oh whoops
uh sorry I just exited that
yeah that that makes a lot more sense to
me because at first it was oh it’s hard
and difficult yeah and then just let me
ask you if the creator of the universe
and governor of the universe really
let’s pretend that that is fully
believed in your heart
he is really the one who has created and
is over everything
doesn’t answer you
when you first require something of him
and your response is what if it’s one of
anger yeah then you have pride where you
think as a creative being you get to
knock on his door and beckon him and
that’s the way most of the world thinks
it does it does make sense though that
he
like when you put it that way with like
the prisoner calling out to God that
makes sense because it’s like you
haven’t been here this whole time like
it’s pretty fleeting that you’re just
kind of giving this a shot to see if it
will work like I’m not just gonna answer
the fleeting right and that prisoner
who’s calling out would be like the Jews
who required signs they would say show
us a sign yeah so and then if the
prisoner got that he’d walk away and say
I believe in Galaxie answered my prayer
and that’s why
when when the Commandment to love God is
there it’s agape love and you know what
that means it means we love him when
he’s not pleasing to us
did you know that because Agape loves
when you choose to love selflessly
sacrificially and insufferably so if you
were to agape love him that means we’re
not loving him because he’s good to us
we’re loving him when we’re not happy
with him
that’s really
gnarly gnarly it’s one thing with other
people to agape love them but with God
it’s like
yeah and she showed she still had Faith
even though he called her a dog that’s
pretty profound yeah and that’s humble
yeah and it’s
it
yeah yeah
get it
um yeah I it goes back to what we were
talking about before though with like
what you just said with agape love with
God
I’m I’m mixing that up with like not
having it not fully feeling it or
something and choosing him is agape love
but that’s not it it’s being hurt or
angry at it yeah it’s not the lack of
something and doing it doing it in the
face of that that’s Agape it’s the not
it’s like the real understanding of him
and then being hurt or like dissatisfied
with it and then still loving him and
like Mom has that because she thinks
she’s done everything right why isn’t
she blessed with riches and like the
Kardashians and this isn’t the pick on
her she’s
the only woman I could ever have been
married to and loved and brought us
beautiful children but she does see the
world that way and so she gets mad at
God
yeah and the way to really help you with
that is to read job because I want to he
takes he takes job through all he allows
Satan to take job through all kinds of
hell I mean brutal and in the end Joe
comes to him and he’s like
who are you who do you think you are
that you can come Were You There When I
formed the world’s job where were you
when I did this tell me if you can and
it’s a fascinating thing you think I’d
be like I’m so sorry it was for your
good no
and that is what people miss about holy
God yeah
humility can’t be overstated
it it cannot be overstated
and the pride in the world is man it’s
what keeps us from him
and yeah humility or on the other side
of it like difficulty
and suffering can’t be overstated no
like yeah
scripture says that he loves those he
chastens and cuts back
we know a young man who was fully out
for God and his mom was killed and he
now doesn’t believe in God that doesn’t
seem to work you know anyway
go ahead what timer just went off oh
we’re done perfect timing because that
was my last question all right excellent
yay all right
chapter 16 is next
goodbye
