Worship, Art, and Criticism

Live from SLC Utah this is HOTM, where we do all we can to worship God in spirit and in truth. And I’m your host Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion..

Up and coming guests review:

Tonight Kwaku El (Part I)
May 7 Kwaku El (Part II)
May 14 Kwaku El (Part III)
May 21 David Valdez (from kehilat Beit Lechem)
May 28 Dave Donaldson Part II
June 4 Andrew Fagen
June 11 Zelph on the Shelf

Artistic Expression and Critique

Speaking of Zelph on the Shelf, Tanner Gililand (from said Zelph on the Shelf) has produced a VERY artistic video that to me, at least, speaks to the HEART of what organized religion can do to people – perhaps this is biographical on Tanner's part – I don’t know. But this piece of art is freaking POWERFUL (and so bloody well done) we got permission to show it – and hats off to the creativity, the filming, the editing, and the acting. Now, some of you are going to relate to this, some are not, and isn’t that the way art is? But as a former Latter-day Saint this presentation spoke directly to me and I applaud it.

So . . . here . . . we . . . go.

(RUN FILM)

Again we are going to have Tanner and Samantha from Zelph on the Shelf with us on Tuesday June 11th – we look so forward to that.

Addressing Criticism

Last week I gave a nice rant against the characters down at temple square and boy has that show created some backlash on me and my views. I want to explain something to you armchair quarterbacks who are so quick to attack me. You speak without knowledge. There is always a backstory to everything I say and do – you are just not privy to it. But that doesn’t seem to matter.

But here is the quick backstory to last week's criticism of Aaron S. Have any of you ever heard me speak against Aaron S on this show before? I don’t think I have. But for the last SEVEN YEARS Aaron has ranted against me online, he has talked badly about my person and faith and abilities publicly, and he has gone so far as to actually take people who defend me and try to get them to turn on my person. SEVEN YEARS. The whole time I have not retaliated – I have only reached out to him and invited him to come on the show – KINDLY – and was rudely rebuffed. I even saw Aaron on the street near my home downtown and greeted him warmly in the face of his incessant attacks against me. Two weeks ago I was told the story about Aaron and the old woman at temple square – and always being against confronting LDS people outside their religious places – I had had enough of the guy. I’m not Jesus – but even Jesus called Herod an old fox.

Until you have a guy or a woman attacking you endlessly behind the scenes and then publicly writing and speaking against your very faith for seven years, you can judge the one time I speak out against him for things I find reprehensible. So there.

Upcoming Interviews and Reflections

Last Friday afternoon, from 12:30 to nearly six o’clock, Seth and Kathy Maggie and myself met here in our church studio and worked through several hours of interviewing with Kwaku El, a former Christians (turned LDS) five years ago. In our first hour we learn all about Kwaku and his life and then after that we covered some 25 different doctrinal topics together – which we will get to see in the next couple of weeks. I took a very different approach with this young man then my approach with other LDS people in the past. We will talk more about this in the coming weeks. What did I walk away with after nearly six hours together? I liked Kwaku El. I think he is earnest.

Shawn McCraney's Dialogue with Kwaku El

And has a heart for God and Good. I do not think he was an informed Evangelical when he left the faith – and I blame the pastors who had him in their care for failing to teach him the Word of God in context but instead provided him with Christian culture. BLEECH. I was grateful for his willingness to take the Orthodox LDS view with me and admit to beliefs that many so-called apologists annoyingly dance around. This is a rarity in public conversations with faithful LDS people but he had no problem speaking his mind. Listen carefully to his story. In it you will hear clues to what helped lead KwAku from Evangelicalism to Mormonism. Take a look at Part I with KwAku El.

(RUN PART I)

Show 18 Kwaku El – Part One April 30th 2019

Live from Salt Lake City This is heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and truth. And I’m your host Shawn McCraney.

Part II with Kwaku El

Let’s have a prayer.

PRAYER

In this segment (and in the next) I give Kwaku the room to explain his beliefs without challenging them too much. This will trouble some of you because you will want to see more blood in the water (so to speak). I chose to let what Kwaku says (and how he explains himself) to do the talking, and to let what I say about my beliefs to do the same. I did not care about winning or calling peoples personal beliefs much into question because I am convinced that we all reveal ourselves by the things we say and profess – and that the truth will come through by the Spirit. Kwaku does reveal himself and his methods for discerning and explaining truth and I reveal myself in the same ways. It is up to you to decide what plays to your mind and heart. So here we go with Part II with Kwaku El – here on Heart of the Matter.

Presentation of Doctrine and Theology

So let’s move into a conversation or the presentations of doctrine and theology. What I really want to do during this time with you is to present to you, in chronological order relative to the biblical narrative, 23 topics. The purpose for my presenting to you these topics is because I sincerely want to know, to hear from your mouth and heart, what you believe as an active member – apologetical member – of the LDS faith. It has almost been 20 years since I was an active member and things have changed AT LEAST IN THE MINDSET of many members and so hearing from you will be a real opportunity for us. My hope is that you do, in fact, give responses that are true to LDS doctrines and practices because if you are just spouting “Kwaku’s views” then this time loses a tremendous value to our viewers and listeners. I realize you do NOT speak for the LDS church, but you do defend it publicly and in that position, it is my hope that your stances and views are concurrent with a faithful temple recommend holding member of the LDS church.

Respectful Dialogue

It's important for you to know that I will not debate with you nor do I want to challenge the tenets of your faith. I honestly believe every person on earth has the right to believe what they want to believe and that they ought to be treated respectfully – so I am not interested in any sort of debate. Everything I will say or ask is for one or two reasons: First, to help clarify your views and second, I want, in the face of your views, to share what I have come to believe as a former Mormon and former Evangelical but current sold out biblical Christian. So, we will hear what you have to say about the topics and then I will offer what I believe are the best biblical views of the topic at hand and then we can dialogue on the differences – if any – before moving on to the next topic. I will cite scripture to support my views but realize they may or may not be interpreted by you the way I interpret them.

The topics we will hit here in our second hour are:

• Ontology of God
• Premortal Existence
• Creation Account

Biblical Topics Overview

• The Fall
• The Gospel being known from the beginning
• The Flood and the Ark
• Prophets
• Temples and Temple Worship
• Last book of the Old Testament Malachi and his prophecies

In our third hour together we will cover the following Chronological topics:

• The virgin birth (with a subtopic on Original SinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace.)
• Ontology of Christ
• Water Baptism
• Atonement Garden or Cross
• Resurrection
• Apostles
• Falling Away
• End Times
• Soteriology or how we are saved?

And then in our last hour together we will touch on the remaining topics:

• BOM/PoGP/D&C

A couple final things before we start:

Many – most biblically based Christians today – regurgitate what has traditionally been taught to them. I used to do this – until I was in the word enough to see that traditions in many ways are just the attempts of Men to synthesize concepts. So many of my views are not going to be concurrent with the Evangelicals you have met in the past. But I maintain that they are just as viable – actually more.

The Ontology of God

OKAY . . .

Since we are going chronologically through the biblical narrative, let’s start with the make-up or Ontology of God (we will get to the makeup of Jesus later):

• Ontology of God (and we will get to the Make-up of Jesus later)

(KWAKU EXPLAIN)

Shawn thoughts:

My Christianity says that there is one God. I say “my Christianity” because I differ with many Christians on this who worship the Chimera-God of the Trinity. I reject some elements of that man-made description. But my view of God is summarized in the following five passages which puts the man-made chimera-god of the trinity to bed.

Supporting Passages

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

John 8:41 Where Jesus said to the Pharisees: “Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.”

Where Paul said Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And 1st Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

My God is spirit and eternal and I trust the passages that say no man has seen God at any time, but that His Son reveals Him.

Any thoughts to add?

Premortal Existence

(KWAKU EXPLAIN)

SHAWN

I think that there is theological room for some semblance of pre-existence in that God “knew of us” before forming us in the belly but we do not know

Human Origin and Creation

However, when it comes to our person, personality, souls – mind, will and emotion, I side with scripture that says we humans got our beginning when “God breathed into the clay he formed and that we BECAME a living soul.”

I also submit to the words of Jesus who said: “I am from above, you are from beneath,” and

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Additionally, I trust the biblical teaching that to me clearly says we are all God’s creations and only have the ability to become His Sons and Daughters through faith!

For instance, when speaking of Jesus, John wrote:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Biblical Interpretations and Debates

Any other comments?

?? Transmigration of souls (man born blind from birth)

Creation

(KWAKU EXPLAIN)

SHAWN

Six-day literal creation? 24 hour days? Evolution? Not a hill to die on though many do. In Meanvangelicalism. Don’t care. I take the creation story as actual but the literalness of it I'm not sure I can explain it all.

Theological Considerations and The Fall

The Garden and the Fall, Original Sin

(KWAKU EXPLAIN)

SHAWN

Have trouble with a God who set up a rule that in the breaking of it allows for the most heinous events to his creations to occur. The idea of Original Sin is destroyed in the conception of Jesus – don’t agree with it. Also don’t understand one major thing about the LDS take on the Fall:

Satan says in the temple film (and it is okay to cite him because it's not part of the signs or tokens or endowment) but Satan, when asked what he is doing in the Garden of Eden says, “I am doing that which has been done in other worlds.”

My question is IF OR SINCE Satan knew that for Adam and Eve to eat the fruit was actually the desires of God wouldn’t he have done everything possible to keep Eve AWAY from the tree rather than tempting her to eat it?

The LDS – beginning with Joseph Smith, taught that “the Gospel” – even Jesus’ name – was known and taught from the beginning – as in the Garden and was known to all the prophets?

(KWAKU RESPONDS)

Shawn

I stand by the statements on this subject in scripture:

Ephesians 3:9 where Paul says

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:26 “Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints.”

Romans 16:25 “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith”

The Flood and Prophets

Flood and the Ark

KWAKU EXPLAIN

Geographical and all the animals of that region which was most likely a large basin in the Middle East and which was probably about as far as humankind had spread out to. Could be wrong on this, but have trouble with a worldwide flood covering the highest mountains – unless the world was flat.

Prophets

The LDS faith is huge on living prophets – I mean, that point is

Old Testament Prophets and Their Role

Central to the LDS missionary lessons is the belief that “God loves us as much as he loved the Nation of Israel to whom he gave prophets – so wouldn’t he give prophets to the world today?”

(KWAKU RESPONDS)

Shawn

• Jesus said that

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Hebrews 1:1-3 says

Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, who at different times and in different ways spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.

In other words, with and through His Son, I contend that the world has no need of any intermediaries any longer. And since Pentecost, all believers on His Son have God in them, by the Holy Spirit – so the need for an intermediary is wholly unnecessary!

From the Old Testament, I can see that Prophets came and

• Spoke the Word of God (but He is the Word of God made Flesh)
• Foretold of future events (which he did to them/then about the future of that Age)
• Warned them
• Healed and did miracles

And then there is the Intertestamentary period when God was silent for some 400 years prior to John and Jesus???

Temple Worship in LDS Belief

• Temple Worship like Ancient Israel

Because temple worship was instituted among the Jews let’s talk about the LDS view of temple.

(KWAKU EL)

Shawn

• Historic Mount Moriah (historically the place of SO many events including Abraham going up and sacrificing his Son, David building an altar, and Solomon building his temple).
• What they did in that temple is plainly described in Leviticus
• God leveled that temple, tearing the veil in two top to bottom and leaving not one stone upon another

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1st Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Malachi's Words on Temple Justification

• The Last book of the Old Testament – Malachi – and his words therein are key to the biblical justification of temples as they take the following passages as evidence of what temple work is doing:

Malachi 4:5-6 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

(KWAKU EXPLAIN)

Shawn

Matthew 11:13-14 Jesus said “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

Explain

• Prepare for the Kingdom of GodGod’s spiritual reign—fulfilled and present, not political or future.
• The Axe is laid at the tree
• Families were divided over religion in that day.
• Sadducees
• Pharisees
• Essenes

By pointing people to the True Messiah John was turning the hearts of a divided people to each other to prepare them for the coming end.

Apostolic Record Topics

Live from Salt Lake City, this is Heart of the Matter where we do all we can to worship God in Spirit and truth. I’m your host Shawn McCraney with PART III featuring KWAKU EL! Let's get right to it!

Okay . . . we left off hearing your thoughts and explanation of a number of Old Testament themes. Tonight, we move into the Apostolic Record (or what people wrongly due to tradition call the New Testament). These will include:

• The virgin birth (with a subtopic on Original Sin)
• Ontology of Christ
• Water Baptism
• Atonement Garden or Cross
• Resurrection
• Apostles
• Falling Away
• End Times
• Soteriology or how we are saved?

Again, we will move forward through our topics chronologically, so let’s start with . . .

Virgin Birth/Conception of Jesus

(Kwaku Responds)

Shawn

You may have noticed that I am not citing an abundance of information from LDS church history to question you with. But this topic has been a real sticky wicket in the LDS/Christian dialogues. The interesting thing about the standard Christian view is that they admit that Jesus is the Son of God, even the Father, but Matthew 1:20 says:

“But while Joseph thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”

This is what I believe. That Almighty God overshadowed Mary and she conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Sub-topic: LDS View of Original Sin

(SHAWN)

This opens us up to a problem because in reality, the LDS view – of the conception of Jesus is much clearer than the Evangelicals. Let me explain. The Evangelicals typically claim allegiance to Original Sin. But then they somehow cannot adequately explain how Jesus was born of a woman who somehow did not possess the curse of original sin upon him. They dance and sing all around this topic but in the end, the only solution I can see is that there was no such thing as the curse of Original Sin.

Certainly, there was a “sin nature” that was passed down from Adam to Mary and then to Jesus – yes, He had a sin nature. (It was in and through it that he was tempted in all things) but of course, He did not give in to it. I think in terms of Original Sin, I personally side more with the LDS view that all mankind will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam’s Transgression.

Next topic – which is getting deeper – but talk about what it means to you when you say that “Jesus is the Son of God?”

• Jesus Ontology/ The Son of God

(KWAKU EL RESPONSE)

Our perfect example? Spirit brother of Satan? Elder Brother?

Shawn

This is where a number of Christians turn and call me a heretic. So, let me say right off the bat I believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. And I do believe that they are one – and therefore one God – but instead of the Trinitarian schtuff of them being “co-equal, co-eternal uncreated persons that have existed in unity throughout eternity as three making one, AND unlike the

LDS Perspective on the Trinity

LDS view of three created separate beings with one (the Father) being God, I suggest that Father, Son and Holy Spirit all originate from a single place called God. That the Father is God, that His mind, will and emotions – LOGOG = Words) were made flesh and filled the Man Jesus of Nazareth, and that the Holy Spirit is His Spirit. All three flames put back together make one flame.

To talk about a Father/Son relationship going back to the beginning, in my estimation, diminishes the deity of Christ. Here’s why: Whenever we think of Father and Son, we think of an “order,” “a hierarchy,” and a “one before another.” How is there a personal Father and then a co-equal personal son (not to mention the personal Holy Spirit) – but that is the very package that the Trinitarians try to pass off. But If (or since) Jesus was God with us, His Word made flesh, I suggest that He was only called, The Son of God, by us here on earth (and not in a pre-mortal state).

Identity of Christ

When the angel Gabriel spoke to Mary he said in Luke 1:35:

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Man was called “the Son of God,” on this earth, by us – but this was never his identity prior to coming here. We never read of a son of God in the Old Testament referring to Jesus. I think Isaiah 9 describes Jesus internal identity best when he wrote:

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Water Baptism

The next thing to discuss is

• WATER BAPTISM

In particular the water baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist because this is the model the LDS use as an example for all of their members to follow! Near most LDS baptismal fonts here in the states is a picture of John baptizing Jesus. Tell us about it! (KWAKU EL) Shawn

John’s baptism of Jesus served a number of things:

When administered to the Messiah John would know who that Messiah was:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

• This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
• And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
• And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
• And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

But the Messiah came to baptize with the Holy Spirit – the real the true the vital baptism – as evidenced by John who said, look, my baptism of water – nothing! I can’t even tie the shoe of the one who comes to baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.

Baptism in the Book of Acts

Additionally, Johns baptism, which was unto repentance and applied ONLY to the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, was replaced by the baptism of Faith in the Book of Acts. To me the thief on the cross is a classic example of how water baptism is unnecessary to entering into paradise.

I think we can all agree that Christ lived a perfect life so let’s jump to Topic 13

• Atonement – in the Garden or on the Cross?

(KWAKU?) Shawn

Biblically, the cross of Christ is

The Cross: Material, Metaphorical, Metonymical

The cross is represented in three distinct ways: materially, metaphorically, and metonymically.

Materially it is a symbol for the penalty paid on our behalf – administered by the Romans. Metephorically speaking, the Bible uses the cross to emblematically describe suffering:

Luke 9:28 “take up his cross.”

Romans 6:6“. . . that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

This is the import of the cross to us metaphorically – it is symbolic to our dying to the flesh and things of this world.

The Cross in Scripture

Finally, the cross is seen metonymically in scripture, which is the most important view in my estimation: A Metonym is a figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another – with which it is closely associated. For example, when we say “Washington” we are metonymically using Washington DC to represent the whole of the United States government. Or when we say “the power of the sword” we are using the sword metonymically for military power. So a metonym is another way of saying its representational.

Some passages:

Paul said in 1st Corinthians 1:17-18

“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

Galatians 5:11 Paul refers to “the offence of the cross.”

In Galatians 6:12-14 Paul speaks metonymically of cross in his life, saying:

“. . . suffering persecution for the cross of Christ. (Then he continues, saying) “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

Ephesians 2:16

“that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Speaking of Jesus Philippians 2:8 says:

“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God., even the death of the cross.”

Hebrews 12:2

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

Colossians 1:20:

“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

Colossians 2:14

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”

To me, the Garden was a place where Jesus was tested perhaps we could say tempted to forego the cross. But the cross was the central point of His atonement. So let’s work through resurrection.

Resurrection

(KWAKU Explains) Shawn

I think Jesus' resurrection was purposeful to show that he had actually been raised from the dead and his body was the means to prove it with the nail prints and empty tomb. I also think he was going to come back to them then in and with that same body at the end of that age. But I think Paul clearly describes a different resurrection awaiting all human beings thereafter and he provides these distinctions in 1st Corinthians 15 where he says:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This is too long a discussion but the LDS view of Resurrection is along the lines of most Evangelicals – but I personally disagree with both – and also believe that the resurrection has been going on spiritually since 70AD. But we will get to that. Once Jesus ascended in his resurrected body into the clouds he left the church in the hands of the Apostles – which is our next topic:

Apostles

(KWAKU EL) Shawn

The Bible lays out some pretty specific principles regarding apostles.

Original Apostles and Their Calling

They were all called of Jesus. They were taught by Jesus.

Even Paul (Galatians 1:1)
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

• They had to be first-hand witnesses of Jesus’ resurrection to which they testified.
• They had to be infallible inspired.

1st Thessalonians 2:13
“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”

• They performed miracles

Miracles and Apostolic Works

Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

Acts 5:12
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people

Luke said of Paul in Acts 19:11
Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: so that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Speaking of Peter, it says in Acts 5:15
“Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.”

• They were sent last of all

Paul wrote in 1st Corinthians 4:9:
“For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.”

Apostolic Foundations and Opposition

• They were appointed unto death

(1st Corinthians 4:9:)
“For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.”

• They would have their names written on the twelve foundations in heaven, as we read in Revelation
  “twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

And finally, we know that there was, in Paul’s day, false apostles (in the face of these true ones with all of their qualifications) causing him to write:

2Co 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So, we know that the original Apostles were appointed to death and killed off.

Central to the LDS teaching that Mormonism is “the only true Church on the face of the whole earth” is the claim that a “Restoration” of the primitive Church of Jesus Christ had to occur because the Church Jesus established fell into a COMPLETE, world-wide state of apostasy.

The Falling Away Concept

What can you add to this for clarification, Kwaku?

• Falling Away

(KWAKU)

Shawn

This one is gonna be tough for me to articulate because it requires the introduction of what is primarily a new way to understand things – but I will try and summarize it all here.

The Jews saw the world in two ages:

“The Present age and the Age to come.”

And I am going to do something odd here but it should be effective.

(Tattoo)

When the Bible speaks of a falling away, it was talking about believers/Saints falling away PRIOR to the wrapping up of the former.

The Coming of Christ in 70 AD

Age at the coming of Christ in 70 AD.

This is why Paul wrote Acts 20:29-31
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

I am committed to the idea that by the time Jerusalem was destroyed at his coming in 70AD that the material church was hanging by a thread and only the faithful were taken up as His bride at that time. By the time we get to the “early church fathers” there was enough heresy going on that the institutional religion was over – then and now. But the faith was never to be institutionalized – there was never to be a church that was true – for the simple reason the Holy Spirit lived in the individuals.

The New Testament Covenant

This is how God describes what HE calls the New Testament (in Jeremiah 31:31-34) saying:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Eschatology and Early Christian Expectations

So, the idea of an original church continuing (like Orthodoxy or Catholicism) or a reformation (like the Protestants) or a Restoration (like the LDS or Church of Christ) in my estimation was never in the plans of God. This brings us to the question of EschatologyStudy of “last things”—TGNN teaches all biblical eschatology was fulfilled in 70 A.D. More or the study of end things or end times – #17.

• End Times

The LDS Faith was established with the end times in view – hence the COJCOLDS. Recently the LDS prophet said in conference, “the time is short.” Which could have been alluding to the coming “end of the world.”

(KWAKU EXPLAIN)

Shawn

Refer to Tattoo and key passages:

Teachings of Jesus on His Return

Jesus promised his disciples that he was coming back for them then. In Matthew 24:34 he said it would be within a generation. He said that there would be some present on earth that would see him coming in His Kingdom. He told the Apostles that they would NOT get to all the cities of Israel BEFORE he returned! All of the Apostles who wrote clearly conveyed the fact that they expected him to return soon, quickly with the writer of Revelation telling the seven churches in Asia minor that he was coming quickly. And the destruction of Jerusalem – as described by Jesus in Matthew 24, is completely fulfilled in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Cassius Dio.

In 341 Eusibius said:

“And all this prophecy of what would result from their insolence against Christ has been clearly proved to have taken place.”

Athanasius said in 345 AD
“It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands.” Athanasius 345 AD

Tertullian said in 200 AD

“And so the times of the coming of Christ, the leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, SHALL PROVE HIM TO HAVE COME, EVEN ON THE GROUND OF THE TIMES DESCRIBED . . . “
Tertullian, 200 AD

Saving Commandment and Its Implications

“Remembering this saving commandment and all those things WHICH CAME TO PASS for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, THE SECOND AND GLORIOUS COMING AGAIN.”
Chrysostom, Liturgy

That being said, since the LDS (and many others) have believed that Jesus is still coming back to take his church and destroy the wicked some 2000 years later, let’s continue forward on some peculiarities that the LDS maintain about themselves as the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints.

Let’s begin with the idea of a restored priesthood but this is such an important and large topic I want to hold off on it with you in hopes that I can get you to come back and discuss it with me? However, let’s wrap our time up by discussing some other unique LDS presentations of truth. We’ve talked about the temple, and we will talk about priesthood at a later date, so let’s touch on

LDS Soteriology and Evangelical Critique

• Soteriology

To me, Evangelicalism has long focused way too hard on debatable things in their conversations with the LDS – things which even they do not agree upon! And I think it is improper to criticize the LDS for unique practices and views because the same things exist within the Evangelical world. This includes the ontology of Christ. However, there is one point, in my opinion, that cannot be overcome in the debate – LDS soteriology versus Biblical Christian soteriology. Now, again – I grant all people the right to see things however they want – but soteriology – or by what means a person is saved – cannot be compromised. Now remember, we are talking about salvation – justification before God – what it takes to go to God once we die. I am not speaking of walking the Christian walk or sanctification once a person has been justified before God – but saved. So, Kwaku – let’s hear it?

Paul's Teachings on Soteriology

• I think to take the Gospel teachings of Jesus to His own in that day under the law is the first mistake people make when they take the wrong path toward proper soteriology.
• I think that most of us have to look to the Apostle Jesus called to reach us gentiles to understand soteriology properly – Paul.
• When Paul wrote to the Galatians – who were Gentile converts – he explained the problems with turning to the works of the Law for justification before God.
• Works = debt (explain)
• Justified by faith like Abraham and believed and it was counted to him for righteousness.
• That the Law brings sin, wrath, and death – and that nobody has ever been able to keep it.
• That the law comes as a whole package and if we break one point of it we are guilty of the whole thing.
• Therefore it is by grace that we are saved through faith alone.

Show 20 Kwaku El Part Three
May 14th 2019

Live from SLC Utah this is HOTM, where we do all we

Main Topic: Differences Between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism

can to worship God in spirit and in truth.

And I’m your host Shawn McCraney

KWAKU?

• LDS Scripture Bible BOM PoGP D&C Modern Revelation

(KWAKU?)

Shawn (Reason by the Spirit here)

Okay number 19 (of our 21 gun salute) and it happens to be what I think is the single most important issue or difference between biblical Christians and Mormonism:

• After-life Goals and Hopes of an LDS person

KWAKU

Shawn

Joint Heirs with Christ

Joint Heirs with Christ – something the Evangelicals do not address much – and much to my chagrin. I reject the idea that being saved is the goal. I do not think for a second that Christ died just to reconciled the sinful world to God. And I do believe the LDS in a sense, have a better handle on this than Evangelicalism because the reason God saved us was so that we would produce fruits of love and light to the world.

• Destination of all who reject Mormonism – gospel, temple, prophets
• What do you think is most misunderstood point or points about Mormonism today?
• What is your hope to bring to people about the LDS faith?

Salvation and the Role of Joseph Smith

• Do LDS people have to pass through Joseph Smith to enter heaven?

Wrap up – two things – a game and a wrap up.

Name Game Association 15 rapid fire one answer responses:

• Russel M. Nelson?
• Sandra Tanner?
• Sam Young?
• Coffee?
• Homosexuality?
• Sin?
• Calvinism?
• Mother in Heaven?
• Jesus?
• Plural Marriage
• Mark E Peterson
• Denver Snuffer
• Guys outside Temple Square at Conference
• Joseph Smith
• LDS Priesthood

Wrap up Final Thoughts?

But before I do, want to invite you to come back and do two things with me: Talk about LDS priesthood and two, have you challenge me why you believe your approach to God through Mormonism is superior to mine? Deal?

Shawn

Kwaku

Show 21 Kwaku El – Part IV
May 21st 2019