Live from the Mecca of Mormonism

– Salt Lake City Utah –

This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. –

Where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity . . . Face to Face

Show 5 380 God – part I

And I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion.

We thank the true and living God for allowing us to be part of this, His ministry. May He be with you – and us – tonight.

You know, I say that every week (repeat it). And I mean it. And while I really don’t care too awfully much what Men think I hope you our viewers know the immense value I place on what God says about all things. I do NOT take Him or His word flippantly and spend most of my waking hours trying to ingest, digest, and integrate what His word says (contextually) toward greater understanding.

Defending My Ministry

In many ways, because I grew up LDS, I have not been indoctrinated by what I see as ugly “Christian-ease.” Many of my Christian brothers and sisters consider this a handicap in ministry and my knowledge of scripture, but I disagree. Before we get to our topic tonight I am going to begin our evening together defending myself. This past week I have had Disgrace Book posts forwarded to me that were written by people who are becoming increasingly critical of my person and positions. Also this past week a Christian pastor here in Utah felt it was his right to publicly decry both my person and this ministry.

I am not defending myself – I find the assassinations fanciful and sort of humorous (though they do sting a bit) But I am defending myself so those who support us will have a response. The first criticism being leveled at me is I am a “contrarian for contrarianism’s” sake (meaning I just like to be swimming against the grain). More specifically some are saying that having grown tired of Mormonism I am now moving on to a new target – traditional Christianity. I would prefer to describe my methods flowing from a relentless drive to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Whatever gets in the way of this is open for scrutiny as far as I’m concerned.

Responding to Criticisms

Along these lines is the accusation that when I got kicked off the local airwaves I became “unmoored.” Actually, I had become unmoored well before they ever took me off the air . . . actually I was never moored. The second main criticism we’re hearing is coming from people who are saying I am hypocritical because in earlier programs I have supported certain teachings (like on the eternality of hell or the Trinity) but have now, (AHHHHH) changed my mind! Let me offer what I believe are some reasonable explanations for this.

First of all, I have grown up in my faith as a Christian on television. I defended things like the Trinity because it was all I knew and much of what I used to support I continue to support. But, as is the case with ANYONE who is a seeker of truth, when greater light shines on a subject I am always going to reveal and support the new and improved view over the old. I refuse to patronize former positions simply because they worked for me in the past.

Some cowards on Disgrace book suggest this is a failure. I would suggest that clinging to anything that is not correct – no matter what it is or how well it works – is a sign of cowardice – and is the foundation upon which great empires of false religion are built. Hopefully, this approach will constantly reaffirm the fact that I have never suggested that anyone follow or believe me – but to do their own homework and research to either prove me wrong . . . or prove me right.

Accountability in Ministry

The final criticism is yet another favorite from the minds of weak and wimpy men. It’s built on the idiocy of safety in numbers, that popular opinion rules, and that individuals must be governed by men. What am I talking about? The constant cacophonous din bemoaning the fact that I am not accountable to anyone. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

(beat)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

It doesn’t seem to be enough . . .

But this is NOT enough for controlling, fearful men. They are of the opinion I need to answer to a committee or board of elders, to a congregation of voices and thoughts and ideas. Biblically, I find this is the case in one specific area – the stewardship of material goods and monies. As a result our ministry has a

Resistance to Man-Made Accountability

couple – Derrick and Denita Webster – who have access to all the accounts, make all the deposits, and reconcile every expenditure. I have to justify every expense to them and am not on any bank accounts. But this biblically driven practice is not enough for the whiners. They want me to answer to a board of men for what I think and even how I look!

All my life I have had men attempting to make me accountable to them in areas like this. What many present-day Christian critics of mine do not realize is had I been compliant to such attempts I’d still be LDS. That . . . it was my refusal to please men that allowed me to look outside the LDS box and see the light that set me free. For some strange reason my Christian critics seem to think my refusal to have my thoughts governed ought to have changed when Christ reached in and changed my heart! Frankly, when He became my King the Holy Spirit made me all the MORE resistant to men and their fearful, controlling, fleshly, religious ways.

The Ineffectiveness of Accountability Groups

And it drives petty, fearful men nuts. What makes it most frustrating is they actually think it is holy and Godly for men to submit their minds over to other men. Let me tell you something, had I made myself “accountable” to men, our first book Born-Again Mormon would have never been written or published. Heart of the Matter would have been a show with me in a white shirt and tie sitting on a pleather chair and backed by wood paneling from the 60’s. Had I listened to men CAMPUS would have instituted tithing as a law to place people under and we would have had building drives, billboard campaigns along the I-15, and I would have been driven to make our weekly verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. gatherings more “attractive” and engaging.”

Look around and ask yourselves – what have these non-biblical accountability groups and governing boards over pastors accomplished in the Christian churches today? Like elevator music they have done nothing but ensure that mindless traditions are adhered to, that budgets get bigger and bigger, and that the pastors they control push their materialistic and politically motivated agendas! Was the pastor who attacked me for not having a board of elders assisted or corrected by the board he answers to for publicly criticizing a brother by name? How many of these mega churches have boards – I’d bet most if not all of them – and what have they accomplished. BIZ-NAS, that’s all.

Accountability in Scripture

Yes, looking over the biblical account I am astounded at the accountability group surrounding John the Baptist. Remember the board of Elders he had to answer to? Of course Jesus willingly subjected Himself to the thoughts and ideas of men, didn’t He? Oh yeah, Paul, when He was called along the road to Damascus, remember how he immediately went and conferred with the other apostles to get their approval?

In Wittenberg there’s a giant statue in the city park – it’s of Martin Luther and his accountability group when they nailed the 95 Thesis to the door. Right? The word “accountability” is not even in the Bible. It’s a man-made corporate construct, and when taken seriously, it produces things like cheese spread, elevator music, strip malls, and the Trinity.

Imagine if Sir Richard Brannon had listened to the innumerable men who unitedly pleaded with him, in the name of fiscal responsibility, to refrain from starting up Virgin Atlantic. Imagine if William Wilberforce listened to the councils of men who told him to leave slavery alone. Imagine if Jesus had listened to the advice of the Sanhedrim, or even His apostles for that matter! What is the purpose of having the Holy Spirit indwelling in us as believers if we take Him and His promptings and submit them to . . . accountability groups composed of men?

In all the parks and towns and cities there are no statues of committees. So sitting there behind their keyboards and standing behind their pulpits our critics grow – condemning me for thinking on my own, for refusing to subject the Spirit of God (within) to the will, and ways, and whiles of fleshly men without. What are they crying over?

We have an operating studio with very low overhead that also serves as our local church wonderfully. And we’ve never caved in and preached tithing or budget giving nor have we ever passed a plate. Where God guides God provides. We’ve seen thousands come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus.

Christian Teachings vs. Wisdom of Men

Christ – many of whom that have abandoned Mormonism. We’ve published four books – giving 80 to 90% of them away (in His name). We have over 400 hours of television programming seen all over the world. The local pastors and ministries here in Utah ardently fought the program ever airing! We do all we can to promote faith and love and devotion to our King at every turn. And now we are about to launch a 24/7 television network that will air solid Christian teachings without charging the presenters a cent. All the result of listening to God instead of man . . . all the result of refusing to agree with counsels of Men and their “religious convictions,” but to instead really try and walk by faith and allegiance to our King.

Perspectives from the Word

And with that let’s have a moment from the Word. Seguing from all I just said, let’s actually read what the Word has to say about the counsels of men. Yes, we have that all familiar (but greatly misused) verse from Proverbs 27:17 (which says): “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.“ It’s a great verse but first of all it is speaking of the minds of friends working in unison to make perspectives sharp. I have friends and I engage readily with them over concepts. But more often than not this verse is used to put men under the bondage of committees and groupthink. In fact, if we take all the verses that resist the wisdom of men and weigh them against the few that promote getting man’s approval, the latter is really found wanting.

Biblical Teachings on Wisdom

All the way back in Isaiah 29:14 God says, “Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.” The Psalmist wrote (118:6) The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me? Proverbs 29:25 says: “The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.” Remember the influence Man had on the poor Jewish people in Jesus's day?

In John 7:13 we read: “Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.” Speaking of Jesus (our Lord, and King and example) it says that in the presence of His teachings the people: “were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.” Mark 1:22 I mean, think about it – who is our judge? Each other? Can I take a committee with me when I stand before the King to give an accounting of the ministry and life He has given me?

Scriptural References

“Hey Jesus, I would have done this or that but the board said . . . ” Listen to Paul who said in 1st Corinthians 2:4 “And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.” Why would any believer who possesses the holy spirit, and who loves the Word of God, spend a minute of their life making theological decisions based on a consensus?

How about 2nd Corinthians 4:2 “But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.” At the end of 1st Corinthians 3 Paul writes beginning at verse 18 –

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God., or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Then in the very next chapter (four) Paul continues, saying: 1st Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small…

Examination of God in Christianity and Mormonism

thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

And with that, let’s have a word of prayer.

Mormonism's Myth of God

We are going to embark on our first topic of examination between faulty Mormonism and faulty Christianity tonight – the general topic of God. General Christianity as a whole, influenced by Roman Catholicism and its creedal devotions, mindlessly endorses a man-made term to describe God – “Trinity.”

In direct response to the incomprehensibility of this term, Joseph Smith created a fiction about God called the first vision, which over time morphed into a grand myth of its own – that God, still thriving in a body of flesh and bone, was actually once a man.

Creedal Christianity and the Nature of God

Travel back with me for a moment, if you will, to 1815. Go with me to upstate New York. Go with me into the town of Palmyra New York. Walk by the barber salon, through the marketplace. Go stand in the crowd as a fiery pulpit sermon on the nature of God echoes through the woods.

Now let’s go deeper. Let’s step into the home of a nine-year-old Joseph Smith. From as far back as he can remember, he has been surrounded by religious tension – especially between his parents. He loves his mother but she appears to be semi-obsessed by organized religion, and has apparently suffered from severe mental break-downs over the topic.

And Joseph’s father, a man young Joseph adores and relates to? He’s rebellious . . . even contentious toward organized religion, believing whole-heartedly that there needs to be a reformation of ideas and doctrines – even a restoration. And that it was going to happen through his family.

The Athanasian Creed

So there we stand, right next to a nine-year-old Joseph Smith Jun (with all that is going on in his head) as a Protestant preacher bellows from atop a tree stump. What are we hearing in this minister's description of God? Well today, my friends, I’m just gonna recite the creed of our faith. This is what we believe,” he shouts (and he reads the Athanasian Creed which says):

“Whosoever [sic] will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith; which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.”

“And the Catholic Faith is this: that we worship One God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost, the Father uncreate, the son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal; and yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty; and yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord; and yet.

The Trinity in Christian Belief

Not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another, none is greater or less than another; but the whole three persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He, therefore, that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

The Incarnation of Jesus Christ

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation, that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man, of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God, and perfect man; of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting; equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his manhood; who, although he be God and man, yet is he not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ: who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; he ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead; at whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved. Glory be to the Father and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Questioning Traditional Beliefs

And because it came from a preacher, from over the pulpit, and because it contains a lot of acceptable truth (with just enough mystery) you and I blindly cheer, “Amen! Brother! Praise be to Jesus, I mean the Father, I mean to God!” But little Joseph, who, possessing an uncanny ability to discern baloney (because he was full of it himself) and a working knowledge of the Bible from a young age, AND the angst of now having to go home and face mom and dad who were at each other’s throats over religion, said to himself as he wanders home – I wonder if I can describe God in a far more reasonable way than that?

In time, and with growing imagination and chutzpah, he does. And Mormonism was born. The historical record of Joseph’s Myths descriptions of God and gold plates (etc) prove the fictional, mythical nature of his solutions. This is without question. But what about the historical record of this tradition most Christians today readily embrace called, the Trinity? Where did it come from? Is it any more reliable than Smith’s first vision concoction? Certainly Trinity smacks much closer to biblical truth but if it’s the product of the traditions and philosophies of man (which it is) why do so many “believers” today so readily and mindlessly embrace it?

We are going to open next week’s program with a shocking revelation of the origins of this Christian creed. Once we have exposed it for the garbage that it is, we’ll compare it to the fiction Smith provided, and then provide the most simple, easy to understand, biblical description . . . of God.

Let’s open up the phone lines:

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While the operators clear your calls, take a look at this gentle reminder.

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Listen, so far The Heart of the Matter Television Network will

Topic: Understanding Biblical Translations and Interpretations

Past Influential Figures and Current Broadcasts

Pastor Chuck Smith, Les Feldick, Jon Courson, Dr. Arthur Fructenberg, Adrian Rogers, The Ex Files, Have you Experienced Jesus, CAMPUS Sermons, and of course Heart of the Matter, along with much, much more. Keep us in prayer.

Viewer Thoughts on Greek Translations

Hi Sean,

I am from London and watch your shows, in fact, every single one of them from your internet archive. I have just watched show 375. I appreciated some of your explanations regarding the Greek translations. I agree with your hypothesis and the reasoning for misconceptions that people hold about hell and some of it being down to mistranslations, etc. regarding the understanding of hell, and the lake of fire, etc.

I just thought another explanation you could have given that may have given a bit more substance to your argument was or is found in Genesis that may help some understand how the Greek translations about age/world being in-exchanged. There are other things which can be exchanged also in the same regards. For example: In Chapter 6 of Genesis God says that he is going to destroy the Earth. Yet we know he did not destroy the earth. He said that he is going to wipe out men from the face of the earth then even destroy the earth, but as we are standing here this could not have been so. Yet at the same time it does show how God actually changed his mind as he found in Noah favour. Yet he did destroy the age and the evil at that time. He did so by a flood (water). This could point to many things, the cleansing you talked of as being the purpose of the lake of fire but also how God wanted to save at the same time. In Noah's age, God chose Water. These were the last daysThe final years of the old covenant age—fulfilled in the first century, not future end times..

In my view, God did not destroy the earth but changed an age, ending one and starting of another. This is what Genesis points out. I think you could have used it.

Scriptural References and Symbolic Interpretations

Remember in Gen 6:13 it states, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh". This indicates the Last Days. He was going to destroy the Earth.

Something interesting but a different point I am thinking Mal: 4.1 when Malachi prophecying of Jesus time being the Last Days. God does not use water but Fire. "Behold the day comes burning like an oven when all the arrogant and evildoers will be made be stubble, the day that comes that shall burn them up leaving them with neither root nor branch".

We know the world was not literally burnt up in Jesus's time. So there must be something of these words being symbolic. So no literal fire obviously yet the same judgment.

Fire as Symbolic Judgment

Jesus himself said, "As in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the son of Man". Luke 17:26. So we know Jesus's day has been referred to as the Last days the same as Noah's age. Seems to me that all the burning up symbolizes the end of an age or epoch. If Jesus was told to be the Master of Judgment, In Luke 12:14 and it is said that he came to cast fire on the earth. We know he did not cast literal fire. So perhaps fire is often used as judgment. If James 3:6 says the tongue is a fire perhaps fire is judgment by the word. According to the New International Version:

The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

Judgment = Fire = Fire by the word: So it is quite possible the lake of fire is not fire at all just judgment by the word.

Keep dishing it out.

Regards,
Mappy

The Concept of Last Days in Biblical Context

To destroy the Earth. Yet we know he did not destroy the earth. He said that he is going to wipe out men from the face of the earth then even destroy the earth, but as we are standing here this could not have been so.

Yet at the same time it does show how God actually changed his mind as he found in Noah favour. Yet he did destroy the age and the evil at that time. He did so by a flood (water) This could point to to many things, the cleansing you talked of as being the purpose of the lake of fire but also how God wanted to save at the same time. In Noah's age God chose Water. These were the last days.

The Symbolic Use of Fire

In my view God did not destroy the earth but changed an age. Ending one and starting of another. This is what Genesis points out. I think you could have used it.

Remember in Gen 6:13 it states "I have determined to make an end of all flesh". This indicates the Last Days. He was going to destroy the Earth.

Something interesting but a different point I am thinking Mal:4.1 When Malachi prophesied of Jesus' time being the Last Days. God does not use water but Fire.

"Behold the day comes burning like an oven when all the arrogant and evildoers will be made be stubble, the day that comes that shall burn them up leaving them with neither root nor branch".

We know the world was not literally burnt up in Jesus time. So there must be something of these words being symbolic. So no literal fire obviously yet the same judgement.

The Days of Noah and the Son of Man

Jesus himself said "As in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the son of Man". Luke 17:26. So we know Jesus' day has been referred to as the Last days the same as Noah's age. Seems to me that all the burning up symbolises an end of an age or epoch.

If Jesus was told to be the Master of Judgement, In Luke 12:14 and it is said that he came to cast fire on the earth. We know he did not cast literal fire. So perhaps fire is often used as judgement.

If James 3:6 says the tongue is a fire perhaps fire is judgement by the word. According to the New International Version

The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

Judgement = Fire = Fire by the word: So it is quite possible the lake of fire is not fire at all just judgement by the word.

Keep dishing it out.

Regards

Mappy

Shawn,

After viewing your past two episodes (Doug Bundy pt 2 and '2014'), I would like to commend you on staying strong and providing a truthful response. The danger of Dave (caller) trying to divide you and Doug on the Mormon/Christian fence was the exact method used by many Christians that ultimately led me to consider converting to Mormonism. I reject the idea that "brick and mortar Christianity" is wholly inerrant because it often contradicts the Bible and creates a superiority complex. As I struggled between faith in mainstream Christianity and in Mormonism, those around me in my Christian church did not try to help me, but rather acted as if I was a "lost cause" for having questions and deviating from normal ecclesiocultural standards/beliefs. This in turn pushed me to pack up my questions and 'belong' elsewhere, that being the LDS church. I'm sure my case is not unique.

I was wrong in believing much of Mormonism, and was never baptized, and yet I believe my discovery into the LDS church (and your shows) was worth the 'enlightenment' (that is, discerning Biblically correct from Biblically incorrect in both LDS and Christian churches). I think a large problem in the Christian church is a tendency to remove any common ground between it and the LDS. Both parties end up alienated from one another, marooned on separate islands.

It's "controversial" no doubt, but thank you for striving to reconnect the LDS and Christian sides (while taking out the unbiblical 'trash' between them) in 2014. It's rare to see such a great thing taking place.

I apologize for the length of this letter, but I do have one question to ask you. Are you familiar with the Jesusists movement? It isn't incredibly new and its essence is a philosophy that focuses on the life and teachings of Jesus (as the Messiah and only way of Salvation), that His words and actions are the ultimate standard that trump all others (including those in the Bible like Paul's, as well as unbiblical teachings prevalent in the brick and mortar).

Dialogue and Theology Debates

Jeff, 24, Akron OH

Hey Shawn, I've called your show a few times and I appreciate your ministry and all, but I'm disappointed that you are unwilling to dialogue with Dr. James White about your assertion on Calvinism and your modified Christian universalism. I remember that you've criticized Mormons for not wanting to come on your show and dialogue about their theology (like the LDS general authorities or Dan C. Peterson).

If you believe in your understanding strongly enough to publicly teach it, then why not discuss it publicly with another believer? I think Dr. White's knowledge of Greek and Systematic Theology would especially be helpful for all involved.

Seeking Understanding in Faith Discussions

Shawn,

After viewing your past two episodes (Doug Bundy pt 2 and '2014'), I would like to commend you on staying strong and providing a truthful response. The danger of Dave (caller) trying to divide you and Doug on the Mormon/Christian fence was the exact method used by many Christians that ultimately led me to consider converting to Mormonism. I reject the idea that "brick and mortar Christianity" is wholly inerrant because it often contradicts the Bible and creates a superiority complex. As I struggled between faith in mainstream Christianity and in Mormonism, those around me in my Christian church did not try to help me, but rather acted as if I was a "lost cause" for having questions and deviating from normal ecclesiocultural standards/beliefs. This in turn pushed me to pack up my questions and 'belong' elsewhere, that being the LDS church. I'm sure my case is not unique.

Bridging the Gap Between Faiths

I was wrong in believing much of Mormonism, and was never baptized, and yet I believe my discovery into the LDS church (and your shows) was worth the 'enlightenment' (that is, discerning Biblically correct from Biblically incorrect in both LDS and Christian churches). I think a large problem in the Christian church is a tendency to remove any common ground between it and the LDS. Both parties end up alienated from one another, marooned on separate islands.

It's "controversial" no doubt, but thank you for striving to re-connect the LDS and Christian sides (while taking out the unbiblical 'trash' between them) in 2014. It's rare to see such a great thing taking place.

I apologize for the length of this letter, but I do have one question to ask you. Are you familiar with the Jesusists movement? It isn't incredibly new and its essence is a philosophy that focuses on the life and teachings of Jesus (as the Messiah and only way of Salvation), that His words and actions are the ultimate standard that trump all others (including those in the Bible like Paul's, as well as unbiblical teachings prevalent in the brick and mortar church). What is your opinion of this?

Thank you so much for taking your time to read this.

God Bless,
Jeff, 24, Akron OH

Analyzing Greek Translations and Misconceptions

Hi Sean,

I am from London and watch your shows, in fact every single one of them from your internet archive. I have just watched the show 375. I appreciated some of your explanations regarding the Greek translations, I agree with your hypothesis and the reasoning for misconceptions that people hold about hell and some of it being down to mis-translations etc., in regards to the understanding of hell, and the lake of fire etc.

I just thought another explanation you could have given that may have given a bit more substance to your argument was or is found in Genesis that may help some understand about how the Greek relates.

Exploring Symbolism in Biblical Destruction

I appreciated some of your explanations regarding the Greek translations, I agree with your hypothesis and the reasoning for misconceptions that people hold about hell and some of it being down to a mistranslations etc in regards to the understanding of hell, and the lake of fire etc.

I just thought another explanation you could have given that may have given a bit more substance to your argument was or is found in Genesis that may help some understand about how the Greek translations about age/world being in-exchanged. There are other things which can be exchanged also in the same regards.

For example: In Chapter 6 of Genesis God says that he is going to destroy the Earth. Yet we know he did not destroy the earth. He said that he is going to wipe out men from the face of the earth then even destroy the earth, but as we are standing here this could not have been so. Yet at the same time it does show how God actually changed his mind as he found in Noah favour. Yet he did destroy the age and the evil at that time. He did so by a flood (water) This could point to to many things, the cleansing you talked of as being the purpose of the lake of fire but also how God wanted to save at the same time. In Noah's age God chose Water. These were the last days.

In my view God did not destroy the earth but changed an age. Ending one and starting of another. This is what Genesis points out. I think you could have used it. Remember in Gen 6:13 it states "I have determined to make an end of all flesh". This indicates the Last Days. He was going to destroy the Earth.

Malachi's Prophecy

Something interesting but a different point I am thinking Mal:4.1 When Malachi prophecying of Jesus time being the Last Days. God does not use water but Fire.

"Behold the day comes burning like an oven when all the arrogant and evildoers will be made be stubble, the day that comes that shall burn them up leaving them with neither root nor branch".

We know the world was not literally burnt up in Jesus time. So there must be something of these words being symbolic. So no literal fire obviously yet the same judgment.

Judgment as Fire Symbolism

Jesus himself said "As in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the son of Man". Luke 17:26. So we know Jesus day has been referred to as the Last days the same as Noah age. Seems to me that all the burning up symbolizes and end of an age or epoch.

If Jesus was told to be the Master of Judgement, In Luke 12:14 and it is said that he came to cast fire on the earth. We know he did not cast literal fire. So perhaps fire is often used as judgment.

If James 3:6 says the tongue is a fire perhaps fire is judgment by the word. According to the New International Version

"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell."

Judgment = Fire = Fire by the word: So it is quite possible the lake of fire is not fire at all just judgment by the word.

Keep dishing it out.

Regards,

Mappy

From: mappy

Subject: inneslodge@msn.com

Message Body:

Hi Sean

I am from London and watch your shows, in fact every single one of them from you internet archive.

I have just watched the show 375.

The Symbolism of Fire in the Last Days

Remember in Gen 6:13, it states "I have determined to make an end of all flesh." This indicates the Last Days. He was going to destroy the Earth.

Something interesting but a different point I am thinking Mal:4.1 when Malachi prophesying of Jesus' time being the Last Days. God does not use water but Fire. "Behold the day comes burning like an oven when all the arrogant and evildoers will be made be stubble, the day that comes that shall burn them up leaving them with neither root nor branch."

We know the world was not literally burnt up in Jesus' time. So there must be something of these words being symbolic. So no literal fire obviously yet the same judgment.

The Role of Jesus and Symbolic Fire

Jesus himself said "As in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the son of Man." Luke 17:26. So we know Jesus' day has been referred to as the Last days, the same as Noah's age. Seems to me that all the burning up symbolizes an end of an age or epoch. If Jesus was told to be the Master of Judgment, In Luke 12:14 and it is said that he came to cast fire on the earth. We know he did not cast literal fire. So perhaps fire is often used as judgment.

Fire as a Metaphor for Judgment

If James 3:6 says the tongue is a fire perhaps fire is judgment by the word. According to the New International Version:

The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

Judgment = Fire = Fire by the word: So it is quite possible the lake of fire is not fire at all just judgment by the word.

Keep dishing it out.

Regards

Mappy