Suffering is a pervasive and universal aspect of the human experience, affecting every individual regardless of age, race, or status, and raises profound existential questions about the nature of God, especially in light of the widespread pain and injustice observed worldwide. While some people endure much more suffering than others, the inevitability of pain in various forms over one's lifetime compels us to grapple with the reasons behind our flawed physical design and the presence of adversity despite the existence of a supposedly benevolent deity.
God's nature is characterized by allowing human freedom and the coexistence of good and evil, highlighting His benevolence rather than malevolence, despite human suffering and the world not aligning perfectly with our understanding of goodness and justice. Believers are called to walk by faith and trust in God's long-term perspective, embracing humility in accepting that human suffering can serve a greater purpose beyond our comprehension.
Suffering and free will are intertwined because genuine love requires the freedom to choose, even if that choice entails pain, much like how human parents knowingly bring children into a world of potential suffering, valuing life's growth and learning. These experiences of pain have the power to lead us toward understanding true love and forge a deeper relationship with God, as they encourage empathy, responsibility, and ultimately drive us to seek guidance and comfort from Him, countering perceptions of God's nature shaped solely by humanistic perspectives.
Shawn's teaching emphasizes authentic Christian love, highlighting agape as a freeing and fulfilling experience, and is appreciated for its genuine depth and honesty, echoing the message of Jesus. His dialogues and interviews reveal an openness to exploring faith's complexities while addressing the challenges faced by those departing religious organizations, leading listeners to ponder the reconciliation of faith with scientific understanding.
Shawn emphasizes the importance of understanding and practicing love toward one another as the fundamental message needed to transcend the hardships of human existence without reliance on scriptures, religious dogma, or a savior. He acknowledges that people can reach this understanding through various means and highlights the challenges posed by interpretations of scripture, which often hinder rather than facilitate this realization.
God and Suffering
Live from the Mecca of Mormonism, Salt Lake City, Utah, this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where we are learning together how to live in the age of fulfillment. And I’m your host Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion.. Let’s begin with a word of prayer.
PRAYER
Personal Stories of Suffering
Show 40B God and Suffering – Live Show
September 22nd, 2020
Twenty years ago, this morning, I was sitting in my office looking out at the Park City Mountain resorts and my phone rang. It was a surprise call from a family friend, John, living in Southern California. He told me my older brother Jeff, 44 years old, was dead. The news was shocking as he was a healthy, accomplished family man of five. I was then tasked with calling and telling my parents – and listened long distance over the phone as their world came completely crashing down around them.
Several years ago I got another telephone call from my oldest daughter when she lived in Sweden. She was cleaning her house and her wrist suddenly ballooned up – something that had never happened before. She went to the doctor and was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis which meant a lifetime of pain and destructive medicines to keep her healthy. Like many of you, I have also watched very healthy people suffer and die from cancer that appears to spring up out of the blue, have known of vibrant giggling babes that drown, and have personally experienced the pain of tooth decay, broken limbs, and sexual abuse from others at a young age.
The Incomprehensibility of Suffering
Why? (beat) The statistics on world-wide suffering are virtually incomprehensible. Homelessness, addiction, crime of every flavor, disease, abuse, loneliness, racism, unrest, cold, mean, hollow treatment of all living things, mental and emotional illnesses, rashes, abrasions, pox, acne, infections, hunger, starvation, and accidents of every kind imaginable. Suffering. Pain. Who? Why? God?
Especially if there is a living, and supposedly loving, benevolent God. In my years of public ministry, I have engaged with a number of people who cannot believe or receive God by faith based on the realities of world suffering. Facts like over 550,000 women die every year . . . just giving birth? Facts like 37,000 children (under the five years old) die EVERY DAY mostly from five diseases like measles, diarrhea, malaria, pneumonia and malnutrition.
And this isn’t really even touching suicides, homicides, war, rapes, abductions, poverty, stress, psychological warfare and alienations from society in general. So, let’s begin right here – suffering, incomprehensible suffering, is ubiquitous in the human experience, has reigned for thousands of years and none, no age-group, race, culture or person is exempt from it to some degree or another.
Perspectives on Pain
That is our first point – suffering is. Secondly, we have to admit that some of us suffer far far more than others, and to add to the incomprehensibility of it, some of us much much less. But the reality is, all human beings will suffer, in some fashion or another, over the course of the life that God has given them.
I went to the dentist the other day with my two grandsons and their mother and watched as the staff worked on giving them xrays and cleanings. The younger boy, only seven, was not having anything to do with these things and a battle ensued between them with them trying to do all they could to help him and him doing all he could to protect himself from being invaded and made uncomfortable. Watching this, I wondered, why the suffering? The struggle? The pain?
The dentist came in and suggested applying a sealer to both of the boys six year molars – and I wondered, why didn’t God seal our molars inutero? And down the cerebral slope I allowed myself to go. Why do we need glasses to see, hearing aids to hear, pacemakers to beat on time, and cramps from menstrual cycles?
A few years ago my mom had some emergency heart stints put in which appeared to save her life at the time. Hooray for modern science right. But since that time has been crushed by deteriorating hips, knees and back causing her within two years to become completely incapacitated. Why not replace her hips and knees? The stints in her heart put her too much at risk. So she lives in a constant debilitating state of pain with no recourse as even the limited pain meds they allow her don’t suffice. And she’s not a complainer!
Couldn’t have God given us joints that would last? Eyes and ears that would last?
Understanding God and Suffering
Societies that would love? Hearts minds and hands that always work? Defenses against all cancers? In the abstract, yes, God could have. But in the reality of all things, I think we must rejoice in the fact that God . . . didn’t.
I think it's important for all of us to hear the arguments and the complaints against God for failing to equip us and which typically lead to a refusal to receive him by faith. So, let’s run through some things to think about relative to God and suffering that might equip us with a better understanding. And I think it's important to begin by reminding ourselves that we, as believers, walk by faith. We do not walk by our understanding and comprehension of things.
If we ascent to the notion that there is a God and His ways are higher and unknown to us, the natural conclusion to this nascent is we trust Him to be loving, Good, just, benevolent and therefore what he allows, we allow. Simple as that. There is no way possible to explain to a humanist why children, or anyone really, suffer with cancer and die. Their worldview is not ours – so we ought to stop trying and admit, at the forefront, that we look to and trust in the Lord God Almighty in faith. Because our world does not fit the Christians, Muslims and Jews view of God as benevolent, just, omnipotent, and omniscient does not mean that he isn’t.
The Long View of Suffering
Hand in hand with this assessment of God and his ways we might add in what we call the long view. Our perspective is limited, but in the hands of the Lord God Almighty the perspective is long and comprehensive. We see a person suffering – he sees the temporary nature of that but the value that experience brings to others over the course of human history. The commitment to faith is shrouded in the daily decision of humility before our maker – a trait many will not choose to assign themselves in this life toward God. Like it or not they go hand in hand. So sure, we can say we reject faith and we can maintain the hutzpah to shake a fist at God for what he allows, but the Christian unapologetically admits to faith and humility before their maker – even if it winds up being mocked.
The argument against God because of the suffering in this world usually begins with the descriptions Christian’s assign to Him, like
Sovereign (his will is always done)
Omnipotent (he is all-powerful)
Omnipresent (he is everywhere)
Omniscient (he is all-knowing)
Then propping God up with these characteristics people, in the face of suffering, tear him and his existence down.
Going all the way back to 33 AD, the Greek philosopher Epicurus said:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.?Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.?Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil??Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
People like George Carlin and others have hijacked this sentiment, but I want to address it from the source.
The Nature of God and Evil
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. God is not willing to prevent evil but has all power to overcome its effects in the lives of those seeking him.
Epicurus
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
His unwillingness is out of a love for freedom of choice among creations made in his image. This is not malevolence – it's goodness and love.
Epicurus
“Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?”
He is neither able nor willing for the reasons posted above but evil is the result of an absence of him; of darkness reigning over light.
And Epicurus ends with:
“Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
And herein comes the rub between believers in the True and Living God and those who reject Him and His ways. We call Him God because He is good and benevolent and as such allows for pain, suffering, disaster, sorrow. To refuse to allow such, and to interfere with the free will choices of humanity would make him despotic, which would make him evil. It is in the face of sorrow and suffering THAT we call Him God, Epi!
His goodness is manifest in freedom which is displayed in joy and sorrow, good and evil, dark and light. The man-made God of imperialistic sovereignty promoted by Calvin and backed by non-biblical words like omniscient, omnipresent
Understanding Suffering
God IS love. And true love, agape loveSelfless love marked by patience, mercy, and humility—central to living in spiritual liberty., is manifested at times in and through painful ways and expressions which exist in environs of freedom and liberty. There is no real opportunity to love where there is no opportunity to freely choose. And with choice comes . . . suffering. And so why suffering? Freewill. The freewill of the parents of the human race, the freewill of every parent thereafter, the freewill of politicians and popes, the freewill of every single one of us to choose light, life, and love, or to choose deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God., darkness, and destruction.
For him to stop such evil would mean the demand for us to love. And genuine love does not work that way. Another argument against God because of suffering in the world is that since he is all-knowing, why on earth would he create us in the first place – full well knowing that we would experience pain and suffering.
I want to reel this back into the boat and point out that this world is filled with couples who do the very same thing every time they choose to have a child. Every time a couple chooses to “get pregnant” they replicate the very thing they accuse God of failing at by creating us in the first place. We know the pains and sorrows of life before we choose to create children. We know they will be teased, ridiculed, get cavities, and could potentially get hit by cars, and get raped and get cancer. But even knowing all of this, we still bring them into the world don’t we?
A Two-Way Street
I realize we are not all-knowing and that if we were perhaps we would not have children, but my point is there is something to life, to giving life, to running the risks and realities of pain and suffering, and in the long view, I am guessing that God discovers there being value – what I see as eternal value, despite the setbacks along the way. I would simultaneously remind you all that in the perspective of a non-despotic God, a not deformed theology God, that the relationship between God and people is a two-way street. This is perhaps another reason why God allows pain and suffering in his economy of material life.
I think it’s important to ask ourselves, forgetting all the ramifications of despotism and the like, is what would our human lives be like if God did not allow suffering to exist? Would we learn? Treat each other lovingly? Drive carefully? Brush our teeth? What if there was no death – which brings some of the most painful suffering in the human experience? I think we would be the most indifferent, selfish, fugly creatures to ever exist! In other words, without pain and suffering I am not so sure human beings could understand or comprehend empathy, sympathy, and/or how to live responsibly with each other and toward our own person.
Agape Love and Human Understanding
And this is key – in the presence of pain and suffering, human beings understand agape love. This is key. How would we love if nobody ever felt pain? Would we love our parents and respect them and show them honor if they lived forever? Would we have ANY innate ability to care for others if they never experienced pain, sorrow or suffering? In the material world, I don’t think so.
Finally, the presence of suffering and pain also has the capacity to bring us to Him. Without it, perhaps this would never be the case. To simplify this, we might see it like a teacher of mathematics. If children understood how to do math they would have no use for a teacher. The pain and problem of suffering has the ability to bring us to the Master, to seek His will and ways on how to proceed, which in turn allows our creator to engage with us, to comfort us, and to show us His love.
In the end, and I have only scratched the surface, I find the complaints against God due to suffering shallow, near-sighted, and founded on humanist perspectives that lack faith but are instead bloated with humanist chutzpah.
Somethings to consider.
So listen, I had the wonderful opportunity to be a guest on a podcast called Radio Free Mormon last week – which we put up on our YouTube Channel and which is also available on the Radio Free Mormon site. Links are in the description below.
(Show graphic)
It's about 90 minutes long but it really summarized most of the
Shawn's Impact on Faith Journeys
Really grateful for RFM for taking the time to talk with me.
Here are some of the comments taken from RFM’s site about the interview and from our Youtube channel.
Listener Reflections
September 16, 2020
K says:
I love Shawn. He is the real deal. RFM, Bill Reel, Shawn, Danny of Talking to Mormons and Bishop Earl Ex Mormon files have had the largest impact on my journey. I will be forever grateful. I didn’t know who John Dehlin was until recently. Shawn, my deep dive into the OT has left me different than I was before covid and attended every Sunday. I will email Danny and cc you. I hope you will still want me to attend. RFM, I donate so much to Shawn that you get skunked. I will rectify that by donating to you more. You both have been huge in my world. Shawn, thank you for helping me learn that agape love is freeing and fulfilling. You are what you said in this interview, a loveable scoundrel.
Jim says:
RFM, Thanks very much for doing this interview. Great closing song! That was popular at a different time. Carpenter of Wood and One More Mountain to Climb were good songs as well at that different time. I thoroughly enjoyed this podcast and it falls in the – Healthy – category. What an interesting interview. Yes it really boils down to love. Thanks Shawn. Thanks RFM
Paul Douglas says:
Great Interview. Shawn is the best. I had the pleasure of having dinner with him and his wife a couple of years ago in SLC. His honesty is rare and he really is authentic. Keep up the good work Paul
Diverse Perspectives
Rick W says:
RFM Really great interview, a lot of depth there. Had not heard of Shawn before but his story and message are great and you and he had a really good back and forth. I’m awarding extra credit for using “soteriology” in a sentence again.
Cristy says:
Waking up to see my two favorite post-mormons having an hour+ discussion was a joyful surprise. Both you, RFM, and Shawn have helped me immensely in navigating what can be, and often is, such a twisty, turny, bumpy exit road out of our former religion. I really appreciated you asking Shawn about how he felt realizing a few of his beliefs seemed to have gone full circle back to an LDS view. It’s a question I have been curious to know the answer to for a little while now, so I was very pleased to have a chance to hear his answer. Great interview!
Tom Ashby says:
From the beginning of this episode I wondered why RFM was interviewing an Christian evangelical. I was taken in about 3/4 of the way through in true surprise. I was a believing Mormon for 40+ years, now a resolute agnostic/atheist. However for the first time in years a message of faith checked more boxes for me than any other. Shawn if you could match what we know about science to a loving God and Jesus, I would seriously consider it.
Critiques and Contemplations
zeke says:
I’ve thought this for a long time — Shawn gets Christianity right. It’s a shame he gets shunned by the corporate christian elites but pretty much consistent with Jesus’s experiences and warnings he left for us…..
Dave says:
I was pleasantly surprised. I had never heard of Shawn and expected to get worked up and frustrated by what I perceive to be the typical arrogance of “born-agains” (RFM’s previous interview with the two evangelical guys nearly made my eyes roll out of my head). However, it wasn’t like that at all. I don’t know what Shawn is like in his other presentations, and I am probably not interested enough to look for myself, but this Shawn was thoughtful and open. Shawn, the views on religion that you express seem healthy. I like it! From what I have read, the sheep and goats parable is one that is likely to have actually been said by Jesus, unlike other parts of the gospel, and the supposed writings of Paul.
The only thing that I would push back on in a friendly way is your belief in the Bible. The more I read, the more I see it as a book written by and containing the beliefs of men, not God. I agree with the evidence presented by people like Bart Ehrman, that some of the books of the Bible are fraudulent, and parts of the Gospels are not original content. The New Testament is a hugely interesting book, but not a great fountain of Truth. I don’t think that the historical Jesus was
Discussion on Understanding and Scripture
much like the New Testament claims he was. For the record, I find Buddhism much more compelling than Christianity.?Thanks Shawn and RFM – I would be happy to hear more discussion.
dl_rand says:
It’s hard not to agree that loving one another is the only message we humans need to truly understand if we ever hope to realize anything beyond the brutal existence we experience here. It is also extremely difficult to understand that shining pearl of wisdom, apparently, since we can’t seem to establish peace in our own country let alone globally. But, coming to that understanding requires absolutely no scripture whatsoever. In fact in my experience, more often than not, scripture serves as an impediment to discovering that simple principle. In addition, I came to embrace that glaring imperative without a savior, guru and or any religious dogma. Based on what I heard Shawn saying, I assume he’s fine with that, as he stated at one point it didn’t matter how one arrives at that understanding so long as one arrives and I totally agree with that sentiment.
Critique of Predestination
I must admit that when Shawn was talking about what a hard time he gets from Calvinists and said something to the effect of ‘there is no such thing as predestination and he could prove it to them’, “using the scriptures”, I blew a bit of coffee through my nose due to a reflective guffaw that let loose. I mean, what can’t you prove using those things? I have an ex-brother in-law who is convinced the earth is flat and ardently claims he can prove it with the Bible. I have no doubt he can prove it, at least to his own satisfaction, the same way everybody proves stuff using scripture. But who cares? There are much more direct ways of discovering the contents of human consciousness, and the eternal values therein, that don’t require poring over ancient text or buying into any hocus pocus. Anyway, I enjoyed conversation. Thanks for sharing it.
Listener Comments
Let’s go to the comments you made on the Radio Free Mormon interview as well as about other shows as well:
Seth’s phone here.
