Did Jesus Pay for the Sins of the World?

Introduction

Welcome to Christianity Today. I'm Steve, and with me are Ethan and Sean. Today, we're discussing a significant question: Did Jesus pay for the sins of the world? This question has been on my mind, and I've been asked it a few times. Let's dive into it.

The Question of Jesus Paying for Sin

I have a friend from the LDS community, and during a debate on Discord, this question came up. If Jesus paid the total price for sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace., shouldn't He be in hell for eternity, since that's where we, in the evangelical sense, are supposed to go for our sins? Also, why was it just three days that He spent in what some call the "prison part of hell"?

The Nature of Jesus' Sacrifice

In my opinion, Jesus paid for sin, but He was the only one who did not deserve the penalty, which is deathSeparation from God—now overcome. Physical death remains, but it no longer separates us from life with God.. He could have lived forever because He never sinned. His sacrifice doesn't merit hell since He wasn't worthy of suffering for sin in the way we are, as we deserve that response.

Regarding the three days, the number three is significant in scripture. During this time, He was in the prison, speaking to the disobedient believers from Noah's time, sharing the good news with them. I don't think scripture indicates suffering during those three days.

Perspectives on Jesus' Sacrifice

When we say Jesus paid for the sins of the world, some of the biggest factions in Christianity, like Calvinism and Reformed Theology, do not believe this. They teach that Jesus only paid for the sins of those whom God elects. This makes logical sense to them because why would God, who knows everything, have His Son pay for the sins of those He knows in advance will not be saved?

I'm curious about the logic behind this. It seems like these two are against me, but we didn't plan this. It's like a humorous debate—not an actual collusion.

Understanding Free Will and Predestination

To answer this question, we must understand our limited perspective. God knew humanity would fall and rebel and that salvation would be needed. Yet, He gave us free will to decide and to accept Christ. I'm not a Calvinist, so I can't defend their position. I believe God knew but didn't choose certain people to be saved; instead, we choose by our own accord, and God knows who will choose Him.

Conclusion

So, did Jesus pay for the sins of the world? From my perspective, yes, He did. However, discussions around predestination and free will continue to shape and challenge our understanding of this profound aspect of faith.

Understanding the Concept of Salvation

The Payment for Sin

In the discussion, the concept of paying for one's sins and the acceptance of this payment by faith is explored. The notion is that Jesus suffered for the sins of the world. However, it's believed that to benefit from this sacrifice, one must accept it by faith. This raises a question: if someone doesn't accept it, do they then suffer the punishment that Jesus has already paid for on their behalf?

The Debt Analogy

An analogy is presented to explain this concept. Imagine being in a debt so large that you cannot repay it. You could spend your entire life trying to pay it back but never succeed. Now, if someone offers to pay that debt for you, the choice is yours to accept it. The debt could be erased if you accept the offer, but it's conditional on your acceptance. The forgiveness and the relief from debt are there, waiting for you to claim it.

The Scope of the Sacrifice

All-Encompassing Payment

Steve’s perspective broadens the scope, suggesting that Jesus's payment covered all sins—past, present, and future. If sins from the distant past to sins committed in the present have been paid for, it's thought-provoking why sin would still be dealt with.

The Existence of Sin

Although the sins have been paid for, it doesn't mean that they cease to exist. The belief is that the payment is there, but its benefits are realized upon acceptance. The unsettled question remains: why Jesus would have paid for sins if some people never accept the payment?

Understanding Divine Anger

Anger and Sin

A complex topic comes to light concerning God's feelings towards sin. There’s a consensus that while sin continues to exist, God's anger towards it should theoretically diminish if it's already been paid for. Yet some argue that the divine being might still express disappointment in human behavior.

Old Testament vs. New Perspective

This discussion revisits whether the perception of an angry God aligns more with the Old Testament narrative, contrasting with the New Testament view where the debt is seen as settled. If the debt is indeed settled, should the focus shift away from sin?

The Call to Acceptance

Ultimately, the conversation returns to the fundamental point: the necessity of accepting the sacrifice. Without this acceptance, the potential relief from condemnation remains unrealized. This emphasizes a personal decision—accepting the sacrifice that is believed to have been made for all.

Understanding Forgiveness in the Context of God

The Necessity of Accepting Forgiveness

I agree with you, but is it to receive God's forgiveness, or has God already forgiven the world? What do you say? I would say that God's forgiveness is indeed available to everyone, but for it to be complete in the sense of a relationship between you and God, one must accept it. You can forgive someone, and they may not accept that forgiveness. Therefore, accepting forgiveness is necessary. God forgives you, but if you don't accept it, that's your personal decision.

Consequences of Not Accepting Forgiveness

What happens if you don't accept it? I don't know for sure, and I'm glad to reflect on it because, like, what's the difference between accepting and not accepting forgiveness? I don't want to quickly conclude, based on my evangelical and Pentecostal background, that not accepting means eternal damnation like burning in hell because I don't have that theological understanding.

Is it possible they don't accept it at once? You might have several opportunities to accept it, but again, it's up to you. So let's work backward for a second to keep the focus. What made God angry in the Old Testament with the children of Israel? It was disobedience, right? If sin is taken care of, is God still angry at anyone like Charles Manson? The sin has been paid for, so how could God be angry if it's been settled?

Changing Perspectives on God's Wrath

I have changed my mind about that. If something is paid for and one continues sinning, philosophically, it doesn't make sense for God to remain angry. We all learn here. Jesus paid for the sin of the world—past, present, and future. Having said this, what is hell about, then? What's the status of people dying and having God's wrath poured upon them forever if the sin is taken care of?

The Concept of Hell and Wrath

There's no use in eternal punishment if the sin has been addressed. Did God pour His wrath upon His Son on the cross? This is debatable. Some say yes, but if true, then God poured His wrath upon the nation of Israel afterward during the destruction of Jerusalem. Does He pour out His wrath during times like World War II or due to COVID? The point is that His wrath was not continually poured out after His Son paid the price for sin.

Salvation Through Christ

God was angry with the children of Israel because of their disobedience. Jesus pays for the disobedience and sin of the world, and this is why the Calvinists don't embrace universal salvation or atonement. They know that logically, if they did, they'd have to say there's no hell, which they won't do. My mind is just blown because there is no eternal punishment anymore; it's been done away with. In Christ, the victory has been achieved, and death and hell have been cast into the lake of fire. Either that, or it's a limited atonement, which brings about other theological implications.

Understanding the Gospel: A Different Perspective

Theological Logic

"I can agree with that," one might say when considering the concept of eternal damnation. While I don't personally believe in a vengeful God, I recognize the logical consistency within that viewpoint. However, it seems illogical to assert that Jesus paid for the sins of the world and yet God is still angry with us.

The New Testament Transition

Between the crucifixion of Jesus and the year 70 A.D., that's where the teachings of the New Testament come into play. Yet, some still live as if we are in that time, waiting for God to unleash His wrath upon the world. I am here to clarify that if Jesus paid for the sins of the world, what does that say about our current understanding of sin in church?

Redefining Sin

The teachings of the New Testament show us that the two greatest commandments are faith and love. Therefore, sin is often categorized as a failure to believe and a failure to love, which can feel more significant than any list of sins we might create. In this complex and obscure arena, there's a call for more faith. It's a spiritual journey reflecting our lack of faith and love. Yet, if the sins of the flesh, like adultery and fornication, have already been paid for, why do churches focus so heavily on these in people's lives?

The Church's Conclusion

Churches might not have reached the same conclusion as we have. They often hold that you must accept Christ, stressing that outside of Christ, there is only hell and eternal punishment. To them, evidence of true faith lies in works, character change, and personal deeds—an approach I disagree with. It seems to reflect a closed philosophical mindset that doesn't allow room for subjective ChristianityA direct, personal relationship with God—free from institutional authority, guided by personal relationship, faith and agape love., where one's conclusions come through personal exploration, the Holy Spirit, and God’s word.

A Different Gospel Message

How should we then share the gospel? When introducing the gospel to someone, the approach shouldn't be "accept Him to gain forgiveness." Rather, the good news is that your sins have already been paid for. Receiving Christ is certainly important, but not as a condition for forgiveness or to appease God's anger.

Reflecting on Modern Evangelism

The other day, I saw an evangelist on the street with a microphone and portable speaker. He was asking, "God or sin, who do you accept?" It didn't sound like good news from my car. Instead of spreading fear and condemnation, imagine sharing a gospel that says, "Your sins have been completely paid for." Yes, receiving Christ matters, but not for forgiveness or to keep God from being angry with you.

Understanding Relationships and Misunderstandings in Christianity

The Importance of a Spiritual Relationship

It's crucial to understand that forming a relationship with Christ is essential. You can be born from above, have the spirit, and maintain a connection with Him here on earth. This relationship continues even after death, as long as one receives Christ. I'm not promoting universalism; I firmly believe that without Christ, there's no direct relationship with Him beyond this life. The obsession with sin within churches is a misguided approach.

The Problem with Hell-Fire Preaching

A significant issue in some Christian teachings is the emphasis on hell as a scare tactic, especially in some denominations like the Church of God in Christ. I recall experiences where youth were warned starkly about hell, almost as if there was a threshold height measurement for damnation. It's concerning that many sermons focus extensively on who is going to hell rather than preaching Jesus and love. The focus should be on embodying Jesus's teachings of love and mercy, rather than targeting atheists or others with condemnation.

Christians and the Perception of Perfection

There's a prevalent problem where Christians are seen as projecting a façade of perfection. This notion alienates others because it's perceived as fake and not reflective of what Christ preached. He preached love and mercy. Being critical and condemning those with different beliefs does nothing but tarnish the image of Christianity. The approach of scaring people doesn't encourage them to become Christians or portray God as loving and inviting.

The Inconsistencies in Sin and Practice

When discussing Christianity's teachings, it's important to note the inconsistencies, especially regarding sin and practice. Many Christians believe that Jesus paid for the sins of the world, yet inconsistencies arise when discussing sin and who Christ's forgiveness applies to, as seen especially in Calvinist beliefs. Some Christians don't adhere to traditional practices such as prohibiting women from speaking in church or sticking strictly to certain Old Testament laws. This inconsistency undermines the message they intend to convey.

The Overlapping Ages and Christ's Impact

The history of Christianity is marked by the Old Testament, the birth of Jesus, and the Apostolic Age. During this intersection between the Age of Fulfillment and the Old Testament, represented by a middle path or a little 'fish', Jesus completed His works. Yet, despite this completion, many believers continue to live as if they're stuck in that transitional period, not fully embracing the message and freedom Jesus brought.

Understanding Salvation and Sin

In today's discussion, we try to unravel some complex theological views, especially around the nature of sin, hell, and salvation. The key focus is whether Jesus paid for the sins of the world.

Did Jesus Pay for the Sins of the World?

The discussion opens with a reflection on our changing understanding of theological concepts like hell and sin. We acknowledge that interpretations evolve as we no longer live in the age of previous understandings. The question of whether Jesus paid for the sins of the world sparks a returning dialogue about hell—a topic we are still exploring.

Challenging Traditional Beliefs

One of our participants shares their initial resistance upon encountering unconventional beliefs, such as the idea that Jesus has already returned. Statements like "Jesus came back," which might initially sound outlandish, challenge us to think deeply and not just adhere to established norms. The essence of our show is to offer varied perspectives from diverse backgrounds, encouraging viewers to remain open-minded and test new ideas.

Engaging with the Audience

We invite viewers to engage in the conversation by commenting and sharing their views, especially since some have a strong belief in God being angry and hell as a present reality. Addressing the comment section, we acknowledge that sometimes comments are misinterpreted. We encourage clarity and openness so that we can understand your perspectives better. Even critical comments are welcome, as they further enrich the dialogue.

An Invitation and Personal Endorsements

The topic for next week will dive into theological debates about the Sabbath day. We encourage everyone to tune in for a thought-provoking session and to provide feedback. Also, I invite listeners to check out my podcast, "Common Sense Christianity," where I explore these topics further without interruption.

Salvation in Scripture

As we close, we touch upon the broader idea of salvation. Some argue salvation saves everyone from death and sin but doesn't automatically usher them into the kingdom of GodGod’s spiritual reign—fulfilled and present, not political or future. or a personal relationship with Him. This interpretation is a matter of debate and will be further explored when discussing hell in greater detail.

Stay tuned for next week's discussion as we unravel more layers of these intricate theological questions. We appreciate your engagement and comments as we navigate these complex topics together.

Entering the Kingdom of God

Those who do not believe in Christ cannot enter the kingdom of God, neither here nor there. Belief and faith are necessary, and it's crucial to understand this idea in silence. It's an exciting concept, but many misunderstand it. Christians often say if you don't believe, you will die in your sins because God is mad at you. However, a more logical understanding is that you will die without a relationship with God.

The Nature of Belief

27:12 – Finding Time and Making Connections

Many of us don't find the time, but we should. There's always room for another layer of understanding, and we can always go again. This experience is enriching my life in ways I couldn't have imagined before. It's entertaining, and your engagement is appreciated. There was even a funny incident where I spilled water on myself, and for a moment, it looked like I had an accident.

28:08 – Simple Pleasures and Fashion Choices

I have this craving for a McDonald's milkshake right now. And as I sit here, I can't help but comment on a friend's shirt. It looks great—Truvato wear in blue and black, which is a classic Hispanic clothing line. It's all in the details, like hitting that perfect top button.

Reflecting On Changes

29:06 – Personal Preferences and Comfortable Outfits

I've noticed that my shirts fit a bit differently now, and my decision to stop shaving is driving me a bit crazy. If only I had Steve's level of confidence, I'd be more relaxed. But, with the angle of this chair making me slouch, it's all about finding the right fit—like wearing Spanx that keeps everything in place.

Questioning Tradition

29:47 – Is the Sabbath Still Relevant?

We've been discussing whether the Sabbath day is still relevant. This topic is significant, considering various religious groups have different beliefs on when and how the Sabbath should be observed. Sabbatarians, Seventh-day Adventists, Messianic Jews, Mormons, and Baptists all have varying perspectives.

30:27 – The Argument Against a Sabbath Day

I don't believe there is a Sabbath day anymore. If Christ fulfilled all, why continue adhering to that part of the law? The sabbath is a Jewish law tradition. Supporters argue it's not based on the law because it was instituted at creation, even before Moses. Religionists argue that it remains part of God's established plan for life.

30:58 – Observing the Sabbath on Sunday

Why do Christians observe the Sabbath on a Sunday? Traditionally, the Sabbath is on Saturday. Seventh Day Adventists take pride in observing the correct day, unlike some other groups. Mormons, for instance, interestingly argue that Sunday is the last day of the week, aligning with their perspective.

The Debate Over the Sabbath: A Lighthearted Conversation

The Perception of the Sabbath

I recently moved up here because I thought the seventh day of the week was Saturday. I was raised believing that Saturday marked the end of the week. However, that's not the universally accepted view.

The perception of what constitutes the Sabbath often revolves around religious teachings. People tend to adapt societal norms to fit their religious beliefs. So, what happens if you don't obey the Sabbath? In the Old Testament, the punishment was severe—people were stoned to death. However, the word "stoned" might be misinterpreted by some.

Topics That Spark a Discussion

Ethan is someone who doesn't take life too seriously, except when discussing three particular topics: politics, religion, and the captivity of killer whales. This trinity of topics often sparks debates and laughter among his peers.

Legal Ant Selling and Sabbath Observance

Interestingly, Ethan is involved in selling ants, but only within Utah due to legal restrictions. This leads us back to the topic of Sabbath observance. According to Jewish tradition, the Sabbath spans from Friday at dusk to Saturday at dusk. Seventh-Day Adventists adhere to this tradition strictly. However, others believe that Sunday is the Sabbath because, according to Christian belief, Christ was resurrected on a Sunday. This shift changes the observance of Sabbath activities to Sunday for many Christians.

Orthodox Beliefs and Biblical Interpretation

While discussing these beliefs, I recalled a conversation with a very orthodox Christian classmate who claims to be a biblical literalist. To challenge him, I asked if he would stone gay people, as commanded in the Bible, if the law permitted it. His affirmative answer highlights the tension between legal systems and religious beliefs. It raises the question: Should one's interpretation of biblical teachings override societal laws?

These conversations reveal the complex and often humorous ways people interpret and practice their beliefs. Whether it's the observance of the Sabbath or the literal interpretation of scripture, the diversity of thought and practice offers endless topics for discussion.

Understanding the Sabbath: A Conversation

The discussion around the Sabbath is a perplexing one, with varying interpretations and practices that often don't align with the original teachings or intentions. In this post, we delve into a conversation that explores the implications and contradictions of observing the Sabbath in modern-day Christianity.

The Old Testament Observance

Some highlight the strict adherence to the Sabbath as depicted in the Old Testament, where rules were rigidly followed, and consequences for disobedience were severe. Richard Dawkins often criticizes this aspect, questioning the stoning of individuals for not properly observing the Sabbath.

Without the teachings of Christ, these laws acted as a form of control, enforcing strict adherence without room for deviation. Today, however, people pick and choose which laws to follow, creating a selective approach to religious observance.

Modern Practices and COVID-19

In many counties, businesses such as restaurants and bars close on Sundays, a modern interpretation of the Sabbath as the “Lord's Day.” This practice seems to have been inadvertently supported by COVID-19, as closures and restrictions align with the observance of the Sabbath, although it sparks disagreement among some groups.

Theological Perspectives

A key theological argument is that in the Old Testament, individuals were under the law, feeling burdened and weary until they found rest on the Sabbath, from Friday to Saturday. In contrast, with the advent of Christ, believers are offered continuous rest. Jesus said, "Come unto me, and I will give you rest," implying a permanent state of rest, not limited to a specific day of the week.

This understanding transitions from observing one day to living in perpetual rest with Christ. The Sabbath is viewed as an internal experience rather than an external observance.

Religious Manipulation

Another point of contention is the reasoning behind church leaders emphasizing Sunday as a special day. Many argue that this focus is largely due to the collection of tithes and offerings. When everything is closed on Sundays, attending church becomes one of the few available activities, which can lead to increased church attendance and donations.

The notion of rest is further questioned by the activities involved in preparing for church – driving distances and visiting church cafes for coffee, which contrasts with the purpose of the Sabbath.

Reflection

As the conversation unfolds, it's evident that many people accept existing practices without questioning their origins or implications. The idea that "the church is not a building" is contradicted by the emphasis on building fundraisers and physical church gatherings.

Engaging discussions like these aim to awaken truth-seekers, freeing them from the unnecessary bondage of traditional observances that may not align with the intended purpose of the Sabbath. By recognizing these contradictions, individuals can embrace a more authentic and liberated expression of their faith.

Diving into Next Week's Topic

Picking a Topic for the Next Show

We seem to all agree on our approach for picking a topic for next week’s show. Stephen, it’s your turn to decide on the topic.

Stephen's Turn

Alright, it’s time to shake things up a bit. I always like to bring something fresh to the table. Some might say I have a record of picking rather challenging topics. This time, I've chosen, "Was Jesus God?"

Diving into the Chosen Topic

This question feels easy at first, but it's definitely intriguing. I can't wait to explore it next week. I’m not worried; I’m planning to do my research. I expect Sean to have some insightful contributions. I think I'm becoming known for choosing these thought-provoking themes. I've been dubbed the "deep topic picker." Try saying that fast twenty times—it’s not as easy as it sounds!

A Lighthearted Challenge

Speaking of tongue twisters, try saying "toy boats" five times fast. It’s a fun challenge for the audience. Let me give it a shot: toy boats, toy boats, toy boats, toy boats, toy boats. Not bad, right?

I'm pretty sure it’s my Minnesota accent that helps.

Wrapping Up

Ethan, are you going to try it? I was hoping you’d join in, but you seem too smart for that. Now, back to our plans for next week—more on "toy boats" next time!

We'll wrap it up here and see you all next week on the show. This adventure just keeps getting wilder and wilder.