Heart of the Matter: Mormonism and Part VIII – Baptized by Immersion

LIVE! From the “Mecca of Mormonism,” this is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology. – “Where Mormonism meets biblical Christianity face to face.” June 3rd, 2008. I’m Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion., your host. Streaming video at bornagainmormon.com or hotm.tv.

“I Was a Born-Again Mormon.” Ask your local bookstore – most carry it. If they don’t have them, contact us by going to the website. Of course, you can always get the book from us at our website – and we offer it free to those who cannot afford one. Also, let me remind you that if you want to watch any of our past shows, they are all available online at our website at…??? bornagainmormon.com!

Initiating Project Abandon Ship

Hey… How are you coming along on “Project Abandon Ship?” Send a message, my friends. Let them know up there on the North Temple Tower that you are going to stand up and lose these chains for good! Get your name off the membership rolls of Mormonism and into the Lamb's book of life. Renounce the temple rites. Renounce polygamy as a true principle before, now, and forever! Renounce these false priesthoods, this country-club elitism, and the false doctrines that hold millions bound. Abandon Ship! Go to UTLM.org, our website, or mormonnomore.com for more information on exactly how to do it.

Hey, many of you have heard or seen the LDS missionaries use this piece written by (I think) Hugh Nibley on what it would take for you to write the Book of Mormon. It is a boatload of hyperbolic language that says things like: “You would have to have been nearly illiterate, a hayseed, innocent of all knowledge, and composed the book in a matter of weeks…” stuff like that. Well, check this three-minute video response out sent by Micah and Celeste. Pretty humorous:

Responding to Audience Feedback

Well, we received quite a bit of response from last week's show. Many of you appreciated the show because my wife and daughters were here speaking about being LDS and becoming Christian. Thank you for your kind comments and support – and for the patient understanding.

Some of the LDS, however, accused me of “misleading” the audience by saying that my family is LDS when they are obviously NOT. One critic who is LDS wrote: “It seems you have not been completely upfront about some things (what a surprise). You always say your wife is LDS. From her responses, she is not. You always make it seem like she is active in the church. I am very sorry for you. You are leading your family AWAY from Christ.”

You know, sometimes, I really don’t know what to say. My wife has a wonderful relationship with the Stake President of the Stake in which she lives. He assists and supports her with all manner of things related to the Church. She attends the church with her mother. She attends with my daughters. Her name is still on the records of the LDS church. But she doesn’t believe what is considered proprietary Mormon doctrine. Is she alone in this state, Mr. Critic Ridiculous? Not in the least. She is LDS by membership, but she is a Christian doctrinally. If this messy situation makes you all puckery, go down another anti-depressant and bear your testimony to someone who cares.

We also have a number of people who ranged in emotion from being “disappointed to being downright appalled” at the way I handled an LDS caller last week. Many thought I was “too aggressive,” not “loving enough,” or just “rude and impolite” because I didn’t give him a chance to present “his LDS views and perspective.” There were even a number of Christians who were disturbed by my attitude. Let me explain a few things here, okay?

First, I KNOW the caller. I’ve met him face to face, know his history, and KNOW his intentions as a defender of the faith. He is not calling to learn, or dialogue, or gain wisdom – HE’S NOT A SEEKER! He’s a self-appointed LDS apologist and his purpose is to debate, argue, spin, muddy the waters, and create reasonable doubt in the minds of searching people. To give this particular caller “a voice” would be antithetical to our purposes – which is to clarify, not obfuscate the issues. To handle him with what some of you call “love” is what he preys upon because then he can dominate the conversation with half-truths.

LDS Seeker Challenges and Responses

An agenda, you will hear me respond to them in kind tones and patience and all manner of indulgence. I think I understand the process and difficulty of being an “LDS seeker.” But I know the language and nuances of the self-appointed apologists.

My giving him a voice on this show would be akin to giving a foaming member of the KKK the microphone at a NAACP rally! Not wise. Not productive. And it isn’t gonna happen.

One final thing bears repeating that is related to this topic: Heart of the Matter is NOT a show that seeks to give equal time to true believing Mormons. I care not one whit about being friends with LDS defenders of the faith or self-appointed apologists. I could give a rats aspartame to have a loving dialogue so we can all be friends. It is a show where we CONFRONT Mormonism WITH biblical Christianity. We want to be a place seekers can trust to get a fair comparison between what the LDS have long called doctrine and what the Bible clearly teaches as truth.

The LDS Stance on Paid Clergy

Finally, we had a great outpouring of response relative to the LDS stance on “paid clergy.”

J. Fox wrote: “I know what you are up to. I knew this was all about the money. Can’t you work like everyone else and still preach your false doctrine? You go out and purchase a cheesy pair of “preacher glasses” typical of all Born-Again Freak Ministers . . . the attire does not work. I think you are a thief. Go to the mountain my friend and get educated. Do something with your life.”

In a little less personal response, Elliott wrote: “No one in the Lord’s true and restored Church receives filthy lucre for serving God. Some men who have dedicated all their time and talents and energies to His work are reimbursed for their living expenses, but are not getting rich like you Christian televangelists.”

Well, a great researcher and supporter of our ministry – John M – did some outstanding digging for us relative to the financial side of Mormonism. Remember, no true church, no “restored gospel” could have a paid clergy. Right?

According to D. Michael Quinn in The Mormon Hierarchy – Extensions of Power . . . Stake Patriarchs charged $1.00 per blessing. This increased to $2.00 by the end of the 19th century. Strangely, Patriarchs encouraged the faithful to receive numerous blessings over the course of their lives. Hmmmm? During Brigham Young’s reign, Bishops took whatever they desired from all non-cash tithing donations. In 1844, John Taylor limited Bishops to eight percent of the tithing collected while Stake Presidents got two percent of all the tithing collected by the Bishops in their stakes! No PAID CLERGY! This was freaking multi-level clergy up-line the church is true income!

Historical Practice of Tithing Allocation

In 1888, Wilford Woodruff established SET SALARIES for stake presidents and set up committees to allocate ten percent of the tithes collected in the stake between the Bishops. At the April 1896 General Conference, the first presidency announced an end to salaries for local officers and to only pay the “ahem” apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. By 1904, Stake Presidents were receiving $300.00 per year for their work, and as late as 1920 some Bishops reported to still have been receiving 10% of the tithes collected in their wards.

So, by 1896, only the apostles were to receive a set salary. Now we know this is no longer true, but what about the apostles and their salaries? These special witnesses of the Lord Jesus Christ who are no different in their divine call than the original twelve, how are they (ahem) compensated?

First, they do receive money from the coffers of the church. How much I do not know. Second, they can write a book – especially as an apostles – and have a built-in market of at least 10 million people. Last week, I said that I would be willing to bet that Thomas S. Monson was a multi-millionaire but questioned how he would acquire such wealth being a “non-paid” church employee for most of his life.

Someone called the show and said that they had heard that these apostles were conveniently placed as directors on the boards for church owned or church friendly companies and this was how they continued to amass wealth. According to Quinn’s research in Extensions of Power – page 220-222 – this caller was correct.

Board Memberships and Compensation

Now to be a “director” in a company usually means six day long board meetings per year and a weeks worth of committee participation annually. According to CNN Money.com, the average annual director compensation in 2006 was as follows: A

Directors' Compensation in Various Sectors

A director in the manufacturing sector received $109,000 per year. A director in financial services received an average of $83,000 per year. And a director in the service sector received an average of $106,250 per year. Quinn researched the first presidency and the twelve apostles in 1984. Here is what he found –

A latter-day Saint must go to the temple to live with God in the celestial kingdom. Paying tithing (10%) is mandatory to enter the temple. Tithing dollars were and are used to buy businesses for the Church. “Apostles” are made directors of these businesses and receive director's compensation for their positions. No paid clergy? Right.

Let’s get a head start on opening the phone lines tonight. (801) 973-TV20 (801) 973-8820. And let’s have a prayer before we speak about tonight’s topic – baptism in the “true Church.”

Baptism in the True Church

The seventh point of the “True Church” as proposed by the LDS is that the true church must: “Baptized by Immersion.” We’ll, I have no problem with this. Baptism by immersion seems to best fit its historical ties to Judaic conversion rites and to the ultimate meaning of the ordinance. Baptism is best understood as a means of identification. We identify with something through the act of baptism.

There are at least SEVEN different types of baptisms discussed in the Bible, all of them applied in different ways. There are wet baptisms, dry baptisms, and even damp baptisms. But I’m not going to talk about the differences tonight. I am going to simply agree with the statement that a “true Church” would baptize by immersion. But is this where Mormonism stops when it comes to baptism? No.

Baptism and Remission of Sins

They also add that baptism is for . . . “the remission of sins by one holding the proper authority.” Let’s first talk about this bit about baptism being for the “remission of sins.” There is one and only ONE way to receive a remission of sins – through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Not baptism. Not temple ordinances. Not being shot by a firing squad.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

1st Peter 1:18 “knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; 20 indeed having been foreknown before the foundation of the world, but revealed in the last times for you, 21 those believing in God through Him, He who raised Him up from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope might be in God.

Now one of the verses the LDS use to tie the remission of sins to the event of baptism is In Acts 2:38 it says: “Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Now the Bible is clear on what is necessary for salvation, so how should this verse be taken in light of the word as a whole?

The key to this verse is the Greek. “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins . . .” In the Greek, “for” is “eis,” a preposition that can indicate causality (in order to attain) OR it is a resultant preposition (because of).

So let’s read this verse with a causal preposition. “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ in order to attain a remission of sins. . .” Now let’s read it with the preposition being resultant. “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because you have received a remission of sins . . .” Guess what sense the preposition is used here in this verse? (da, da, da, dahhhh) The RESULTANT.

The verse should read: “Repent and be baptized every one of you BECAUSE OF (or as a result of) the remission of sins!” This is why we get baptized my friends! Because we have been forgiven, NOT to get forgiven! Now, why would a child get baptized in Mormonism who has no sinMissing the mark of faith and love—no punishment, just lost growth or peace.? More importantly, WHY would Jesus be baptized? Certainly NOT for a remission of sin.

Now another verse LDS like to use to prove Baptism is necessary to be saved is: 1st Peter 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the

Baptism and Salvation

Another is

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

(EXPLAIN)

Because of these verses, the LDS and even some Christian religions have made baptism “a must” to salvation and FOR the remission of sins – NOT TRUE. What does Romans 10:10 say?

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Jesus and Authority

What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? Finally, in addition to immersion (which is highly debatable, and the line “for a remission of sin,” the LDS also demand that baptism must take place by “one holding the proper priesthood authority.” We have discussed at length the fallacy of this “resurrected priesthood” Joseph Smith introduced as recently as four weeks ago, but let me repeat on short story found in Mark and Luke that reveals the Lord’s heart regarding this issue:

Luke 9:49

“John said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.”

Now the LDS would have you believe that only someone with the “proper priesthood authority” can cast out devils, and baptize, and do other things in Jesus name.

Embracing Inclusivity

But what does Jesus say to this?

50 “Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.”

Rest assured, the true Churches that follow the Lord Jesus will baptize – in some form or another – but it is NOT to remit anyone’s sins and the only authority they do it by is the authority given by those who believe on Him who died to save us all.

Let’s go to the phones!

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Hey, thanks for your prayers and support from all over the world!

Next week, we’ll proceed through several more of the Seventeen Points!

Until that time, God bless . . . and we’ll see you here on “Heart of the Matter!”