Heart of the Matter Ministry Overview

Live from Salt Lake City, Utah This is Heart of the MatterTGNN’s original show where Shawn McCraney deconstructed religion and developed fulfilled theology., where Jesus comes first—and everything else is open to discussion.

I’m your host, Shawn McCraneyFounder of TGNN and developer of the fulfilled perspective—calling people to faith outside of religion..

Show 38 464
September 22nd, 2015

Ministry Activities

What is this ministry all about? What in fact have we done, do we do, and what will continue to do, God willing?

First, we have examined historical Mormonism in as many facets as possible. These examinations are all still available at www.hotm.tv and on Youtube to the tune of more than 400 hours of programming. Every day we are introduced to new people who benefit from these productions. I actually watched a Youtube clip of one of them the other night and while I hated much about my presentation the information was pretty good.

We have then examined a lot about Evangelical Christianity – it’s culture, its history, and the things that make it both sound and untenable. There are over 100 hours of information on this topic also available at www.hotm.tv and YouTube.

Teaching and Publications

We have taught verse by verseTGNN’s Bible teaching series—book-by-book, through the lens of fulfillment and spiritual liberty. through several books of the Bible. Over 500 hours of verse by verse teachings through the Book of

• Matthew
• John
• Romans
• Hebrews
• James

And we are currently in Acts and 1st Peter. All 500 plus hours are available at www.campuschurch.tv.

We have written and published three books and published one – many of which we give to people who cannot afford them:

First there was “IWABAM.” Then “IF / THEN.” Then, "Where Mormonism Meets Biblical Christianity Face to Face" (AKA A to Z). And then we published Shield of Faith, an excellent Christian book especially for police officers and written by Detective Brandon Peterson. These books are ALL available in the online bookstore at www.hotm.tv.

We have six more books in the que – two of which are coming out soon – to add to the collection. We have underwritten a project that sets the Word of God to music – five CD’s with over 60 full sets of Bible verses. They are unlike ANYTHING out in the world and really help set the Word of God to memory. These are available at the online bookstore.

Projects and Productions

We have also underwritten the production of two short dramatic films on teenage sex. Very artistic, very meaningful and very good. They are titled, "Girl" and "Boy," and we are gearing up for the completion of the third part of the trilogy – “God” – to come out in 2016. Presently “Girl” and “Boy” are available at the online store.

We have been willing – and will continue to be willing – to host open challenges to present doctrinal positions maintained in Evangelicalism today as we have questioned Creedal Trinitarianism, the Brick and Mortar Visible Church, and the idea that Jesus is returning in the future. These debates are all available online at HOTM.TV and YouTube.

Finally, we continue to host this live call-in show that refuses to shy away from ANY topic no matter how much it is endorsed by tradition or organized religion. In addition to our return to the Mormon/Christian discussion, we will be having guests sit here and talk about anything that relates to the subject.

All that being said, at the center of it all is the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ – our desire to reach people for Him, teach people of Him, and serve people freely in His name and cause. We proclaim Him as “God with us,” as the “only source of Salvation,” and as the “Author and Finisher of the Faith.”

We are especially and particularly interested in helping to bring LDS people – if not the entire LDS institution – out of doctrinal and practical humanism and into a regenerative relationship through Him – NOT through more religion, NOT through more humanism, and NOT through more bondage – just Him.

So in that vein let’s continue on with what I find to be very disturbing news.

I received an email the other night from a friend. She was having a conversation with another woman from a…

Transitioning From Institutional Religion

popular church here in Utah and learned that they were now asking those who attend their institution to become members IF – IF those members ever want to be in leadership roles.

Listen really closely my friends to what I am about to say – it is important in the Mormon/Christian debate.

The last thing on earth an exiting Latter-day Saint WHO IS A SEEKER OF TRUTH (remember that caveat – who is a seeker of truth) needs is to exit Mormonism and become a member of another religious institution.

Why do I say this? Because as seekers they will soon realize they have jumped from the LDS frying pan and into the fire of another religious MANipulation and the results is one burned-up, toasted, crispy individual. The model of subjective, non authoritarian, relational, individualistic Christianity is, without question, what is needed in the world of what is presently called Christianity but ESPECIALLY here in the state of Utah – and I am appalled that yet another church has decided to insert themselves in between the relationship people seek to have directly with Jesus.

Forms of Church Control

Churches do this in a wide spectrum of ways. Legalisms is one (you must conform to this restriction or another – dress codes, Sabbath day observances, movies seen). Monitary bondage is another (you must pay us a tithe to be right with God, etc). Memberships is another (which often include all of the above plus other demands relative to doctrine and praxis).

Now listen, IF individuals want to belong to such an institution as believers they have every right. And I consider both the congregates and the leadership of churches like this brothers and sisters in Christ. But I’m warning you, what this church has decided to do is AS BAD as all the LDS do to dominate their members and in my estimation is antithetical to a body of believers where God has written His Laws upon the human heart.

The church I am speaking about used to say in their promotional materials, “we are not about religion.” In their online materials they boldly claim that they “are revolution in church,” and that “Jesus was the ultimate revolutionary for social and spiritual change.” Perhaps this was the way the church began. Perhaps, like almost all Christian church plants they started out with the best of intentions. I think this is what Joseph Smith did.

But guess what this Church did? They ignored the fact that the Body is made of believers, that it is subjectively understood and lived, and that everything is led by the Spirit and instead of promoting this they did what almost all well-meaning religious leaders does in the course of time . . . the introduced a plan to “build a building.”

The Perils of Material Focus

Why do men do this? Because they have lost the true New Testament meaning of Christianity and have allowed the world and its ways to slip in on them. I recently heard a story of a pastor in the area who said years ago: “If you ever see me pass a plate at church you will know I have fallen.” This past Easter they passed the plate three times. This same pastor one taught his congregation, “IF you ever see me riding a motorcycle you’ll know I have fallen.” Today he has three.

Howard Hughes was once asked: “What is the fastest way for a young man to make a million dollars?” Hughes replied: “He should start a church.” I know a guy who is in a wheelchair and suffers from what is called ________________. He told me he attended another large religious show in the state and went to get some coffee. He said to the guy serving coffee that he was disabled and on a limited income and wondered if he could have a complimentary cup. The guy said: “I’ll do it just this once.” Hughes was right.

So this church made a decision – and I am sure it was with the best of intentions – let’s build our OWN church. The minute they went ahead with them the line, “we don’t want religion” was going to change. Why? Because a focus on the brick and mortar will ultimately lead to a focus on the material side of life – the antithesis to true Christianity which is spiritually understood and lived.

What do we read in Genesis?

“And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose

The Dilemma of Institutional Authority

Genesis 11:3-4

The building this church chose to erect cost well over a million. With numbers like that comes burden, fear, and the need to maintain what it has created. And so the church that used to live up to the bromide that “they were not about religion” announced that they were going to now make people who once freely attended, members – of what? Of their institution and ITS demands, ITS controls, and ITS way of seeing things.

On their website we now read this under the heading of:

FINAL AUTHORITY FOR MATTERS OF BELIEF AND CONDUCT

(Shawn Only: Isn’t that title amazing enough? “Final authority for matter of belief and conduct? What the ???? How can there be an authority on belief? I’m not sure even God makes Himself an authority on belief as He allows us to believe what we want? Anyway this is what it says under this title)

FINAL AUTHORITY FOR MATTERS OF BELIEF AND CONDUCT (the website reads)

“The statement of faith (which was provided above) does not exhaust the extent of our beliefs. The Bible itself, as the inspired and infallible Word of God that speaks with final authority concerning truth, morality, and the proper conduct of mankind, is the sole and final source of all that we believe. For purposes of The (Blank) Church’s faith, doctrine, practice, policy, and discipline, our pastors are The (Blank) Church’s final interpretive authority on the Bible’s meaning and application.”

Individual Responsibility

Again, if someone wants to embrace this in their lives as a Christian have at it – you are free to do it and I receive you as a brother or sister in Christ. But remember you are wholly responsible for having checked your brain in to the interpretive ideas of men knowing that God seeks – SEEKS those who worship Him directly in spirit and truth, and does not recognize ANY person who places themselves in between Him and those who claim Him by faith.

And to those pastors in this institution I would recite the Apostle Peter’s words to them where he says:

“I exhort the elders who are among you, I being also an elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. Feed the flock of God among you, taking the oversight, not by compulsion, but willingly; nor for base financial gain, but readily; nor as lording it over those allotted to you by God, but becoming examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory.”

The Consequence of Institutional Loyalty

A final note. I am personal witness to at least five cases where people have exited Mormonism and found a home at this church – all who later exited it. In every one of those cases these people teetered on total nihilism or atheism as a result. What was the cause? They went from one man-made religious institution (Mormonism) to another – and when they realized they had been fooled again, many of them said, “no more. No more Jesus. No more God. No more Bible. It’s all a con.”

In an effort to keep this from happening anymore I hope people will start saying, My Rock is Jesus … and leave it at that. And with that, how about a moment from the Word.

A Moment from 2nd Thessalonians

RUN “FROM THE WORD” intro here:

We’ve been working through the books of the New Testament to pull highlighted verses that relate to Subjective ChristianityA direct, personal relationship with God—free from institutional authority, guided by personal relationship, faith and agape love. and the need for there to be unity and love.

Tonight, 2nd Thessalonians, and there are only two passages and they emphasize the need for faith and love.

2 Thessalonians 1:3 says

“We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth.”

And 2 Thessalonians 3:5 says

“And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.”

Did you catch that? The LORD direct your hearts (the Lord, the Spirit, not pastors – the LORD) direct your hearts (Where?) into the love of God, AND into the patient waiting for Christ.”

Remember this was written to those believers in that day. And Paul tells

The Restorationist Movements

them to let the Lord direct them into the love of God AND into the patient waiting for Christ. Would you think Paul expected Christ to come within the lifetime of those people? I’d say so. And I’d say he wasn’t wrong.

And with that, how about a word of prayer from _____________________ tonight?

On December 23rd, 1805 Joseph Smith Jun was born into a world that for him was filled with poverty, religious fervor, folk magic, and division – not only in the community in which he lived and amidst the religions he observed, but in the marriage of his parents. His fraternal grandfather Asael believed in an eminent restoration of Christ's church to the earth. So did his father Joseph Smith Sr.

Why? Because from what they and many, many people around them could see, the Catholics were absolutely steeped in man-made tradition and the results of the Protestant Reformation were nothing but chaos, infighting, and ugly divisions between supposed men of God over doctrine, practice, and membership numbers.

Alexander Campbell's Role

Prior to Joseph Smith Jun and his efforts to reform the infighting and chaos surrounding him, there lived another man named Alexander Campbell. Born in September of 1788, seventeen years before Joseph Smith Jun was born, Campbell was a Scotch immigrant and ordained pastor. His life’s work was really to try and get people to abandon sectarianism (what we might refer to as denominationalism) and to live biblical Christianity without denominational ties and affiliation. In other words, Campbell fought against “isms.” The term Campbellite and the claim that he founded the Church of Christ are misnomers. In fact, the most renowned researcher and writer on Campbell, one Robert Richardson (who authored, The Memoirs of Alexander Campbell) wrote:

“Mr. Campbell never for a moment entertained the thought of becoming the head of a party or of allowing himself to be recognized as the founder of a religious denomination.”

Once, when Campbell was credited with founding a denomination in a New Orleans Newspaper, he himself wrote to the paper and said:

“I have always repudiated all human heads and human names for the people of the Lord (I love that line) and shall feel very thankful if you will correct the erroneous impression which your article may have made in thus representing me as the founder of a religious denomination.”

Where Campbell was not interested in founding a faith or denomination, he was certainly interested in restoring lost elements of what he believed existed in the original church of Jesus Christ. He was not alone. Many religious leaders with the ambition of restoring the undefiled gospel of Jesus Christ back to earth preceded Joseph Smith, Jr. in the United States. Some names associated with this cause include Barton Stone, William Miller, Lorenzo Dow, Elias Smith, and of course Campbell.

Shared Beliefs in the Restoration Movement

Early Mormonism was so similar to Alexander Campbell’s ideas on restoration that LDS historian Richard Bushman referred to Mormonism (in its early years) as a “Campbellite sect.” In a comparison between the preaching of the early nineteenth-century Restorationists who followed Campbell and early Mormonism (AGAIN, EARLY MORMONISM), Bushman cited many common doctrines, practices, or beliefs current among Restorationist movements of that time that were debated well before Smith launched his restored Gospel to the earth. Some of the main issues that concerned the Restorationists (and later Smith) include:

The claim that there should not be any paid clergy, titles, or denominationalism. That there should be harmony between science and religion. That Jesus restored church ought to have real dedicated missionary zeal. And that there ought to be a rejection of Calvinistic theology. (Smart guys, those Restorationist’s)

They also suggested, AGAIN, before Joseph Smith, that –

A church ought to use only the name of Jesus Christ and none other. That God’s kingdom was to be established in America (a process known as “building Zion.”) A rejection of all historic Christian creeds. Belief in an apostasy and the need for greater reformation. A “faith and works” doctrine of salvation. A focus on sequential acts that lead to salvation. A frontier-based spirit of self-reliance. The reinstitution of tithing. A refocus on Sabbath day observances. A retranslation of the Bible.

Additional Concerns of Restorationists

In addition to all of this, other general religious concerns the Restorationists like Alexander Campbell wondered about included:

Questions about the baptism of children and the status of salvation should a child die without it. Why miracles, which were so prevalent at the time of Jesus and the apostles, had seemed to disappear. Issues related to personal freedom. Ideas about maintaining an agrarian life-attitude (which included the philosophy of working with one’s hands).

Early 19th Century Religious Movements

An anti-Masonic/anti-secret-combination mentality. And the willingness to shed blood for the betterment of the whole. These themes all existed in the minds of people prior to 1810, when the founder of Mormonism was only five years old. The question we might ask ourselves is why? Why WAS there a Restorationist movement afoot?

What was going on in Christianity in the late 18th Century and early 19th century America that caused some very intelligent and devout men to fervently desire to “Restore” all things back to the earth that apparently had been lost? Clearly to men like Campbell and Stone and the others who preceded Smith, there was an obvious need for change. By that time, the Catholics certainly failed at reflecting biblical Christianity in their doctrines and practice, and I would also strongly suggest that Campbell and others could clearly see that the Protestant Reformation, which had a full 250 years to prove itself, was not much better. Sola Scriptura created tremendous infighting among Protestant factions, division over all manner of opinion thrived, and uncertainty over a laundry list of issues (like those I just mentioned a few minutes ago) were the talk of the towns.

Sidney Rigdon and His Influence

In the camp of Alexander Campbell was a man named Sidney Rigdon. Campbell was Rigdon’s mentor in many ways. Campbell recommended that Rigdon should pastor the First Baptist Church in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which he did in 1822 but later left to work as a tanner but to continue to preach Campbell’s Restorationist themes in a variety of church settings. A number of men who would play a prominent role in early Mormonism could be found in some of Rigdon’s congregational audiences. These men included Parley P Pratt, Isaac Morley, and Edward Partridge. Pratt joined Smith’s early Restorationist church (then called the Church of Christ) in September 1830, the year Smith established it.

Pratt and his wife were then sent on a mission to the Indians in Ohio where they ran into Rigdon and gave him a Book of Mormon. Ever zealous for the next best thing, Rigdon declared the Book of Mormon true, and joined the Mormons by baptism. He then converted hundreds of those who sat under his “Campbellite Restorationist teachings” in the Ohio area and then in December of 1830 traveled to New York where he met Joseph Smith, who founded his Restorationist Church just eight months prior. There is a lot of conjecture about the relation between Smith and Rigdon – especially as it relates to Restorationist themes.

Influence of the Protestant Reformation

We will get to some of these things in the months and years to come. But I wanted to sort of jump back into our examination of Mormonism by inserting its place in the chronology of what we have been describing as the Protestant Reformation, to illustrate that Smith did not just pop up out of nowhere with an idea that Christianity was not very unified – the Protestants and Catholics had created this environment and following in the footsteps of Campbell we see the ground from which Smith sprang. Karl Marx once famously said: “History repeats itself – first as tragedy, then as farce.”

In my estimation, when it comes to Restoring the lost truths of Jesus Church, Marx’s words could not ring more true, with the tragedy being the results of the Protestant Reformation and the farce being what was known as the Restoration movements, who instead of fighting for deconstruction, merely added their own wing to the monstrosity called institutional religion.

Let’s open up the phone lines:

(801)

While the operators clear your calls, take a look at this wonderful new spot by Cassidy.

SHOW NEW SPOT HERE

Correspondence on the Topic of Resurrection

EMAILS

From: Jeff Day

Subject: Resurrection

Message Body:

For the past week I have been going through a rough time. My cat passed away from cancer. She was a little over ten years old. I used to cuddle my cat every day. I would like to know if you think pets will be resurrected, and if there are any scriptures in the bible that talk about it. I look forward to hearing from you.

ANSWER

All I can say is Revelation 5:13 John saw this:

“And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”

That being said, I see no reason not to suppose animals will be in heaven. Add in the fact that God takes care of EVERYTHING.

Personal Journeys of Faith

think you have any need to worry.

From: larry stillinger

Subject:

Message Body:

Hey brother..a little history. I first started in a pentecostal church over 20 yr ago. Left there can’t remember why just fell away..some years later our savior started to make himself known to me so I searched every church I could go to..finally found my way to the LDS – me and my wife joined soon there after..and well you know the rest – I know it’s not true and think I’ve always known, but always wanted it to be true..

(SHAWN COMMENT HERE ON THAT LAST LINE BEFORE GOING ON)

Anyway now I’m at a point where I don’t go anywhere or really even read the scriptures anymore..I know what the Savior taught love GOD and love your neighbor..I just wish I could get back the passion I used to have for the kingdom..just so tired of the teachings of men..would like to find some people that really love ..right now your show is all I have..

thanks for taking time to read this..I live in Indiana.

Challenges in Understanding the Godhead

RESPONSE

The road is tough and long for seekers. We know this by looking at all who came before us beginning with the founder of our Faith. But try and get back in the Word.

From: Shelly H from Queen Creek, Arizona

Subject: Thank you!

Message Body:

Thank you for the good you do. God found me and saved me from Mormonism. I met a pastor at a local church, David Roberts, who gave me your book along with several other books. I loved it. Thank you for making it available.

From: Tim M

Subject: Trinity

Dear Brother Shawn:

After 40 years of Mormon false indoctrination I am still having a difficult time understanding the Godhood. I’ve searched the Bible extensively and prayed to know the truth about this issue, but still am not sure. The only way my feeble mind can comprehend it is by this analogy:

Say you have a glass of water (the glass itself is not made of material, but of spirit like the water in it. If you then take and pour SOME of that water into another glass (a glass made of flesh) then you have some of the same water (God the Father/Spirit) in a different manifestation (Jesus Christ) which is in flesh. One manifestation is spirit, the other flesh. But both are God, the one and only God. Does that make sense? Am I way off base?

I would really appreciate your input on this very important doctrine. Thank you so much, Shawn. May God bless and sustain you, your brother in the Lord,

Tim M

RESPONSE

I personally believe Tim is dead on. Scholars call this a form of modalism but all I can say is what the scripture says:

There is one God – the Father of Spirits Jesus was God with us (in flesh) And the Holy Spirit is God in us.

Whatever variations you maintain are between you and God.

Leaving and Gaining Faith

From: Vix

Subject: 🙂

Message Body:

Shawn, (and team),

Great show! Totally agree with you when talking about debate, although interesting, it serves no end purpose, folk are funny huh!

So my stubborn old goat friend, I’ll keep praying for you and that the show reaches many ears and hearts. Praise the Lord, you keep doing what you’re doing, because you and I both know the difference between thinking you have Christ within you and actually being born again! I wish I could impart just a small glimpse of that difference to every Mormon, they’d be blown away! They do not need to fear the institutions teachings, they just need to pray to know Jesus and to have open hearts and be led by him. HE will stand by them as they find the answer, HE will hold them as they walk toward him.

We have lost much in leaving, but we weren’t alone, we did not need to hold on to that Iron Rod of fear and We gained so much more than we lost. I would walk that path everyday if He asked me to, without question.

Praise God.

RESPONSE

I praise God that there are people who have abandoned Mormonism FOR a walk with Jesus. It is a sacrifice in this world because memberships in religious institutions come with rewards. But like Vik said, “We’ve gained so much more than we’ve lost.”

Amen.

Comment on those who leave Mormonism for atheism.

Hello Shawn, I'm a Southern Baptist from Georgia and have been meeting with two LDS missionaries for the past year. This led me to study up on LDS and that's how I found you. I watch you show

Understanding The Perspectives on Christian Teachings

I've watched approximately 50 or so YouTube clips or shows over a year or more. Of course, you are not a traditional teacher/preacher, but I always listen with great interest. My main objective was to learn how to witness to these precious girls who are LDS… but I also agree with much of what you say.

I'm too am very sensitive to the teachings and control of men. I believe in one God and believe that the word became flesh and dwelt among us. I love Jesus! Period.

My first question is this.

If you are not a modalist or oneness and also not a trinitarian then what are you? Specifically in terms of the Father/Son/Spirit verbiage found in scripture? I have a hard time defining what you are teaching.

I know that there is only 1 God. I believe that Jesus is God. I know that God is Spirit. I know that the Father and Son are one… seeing the son you've seen the Father.

So is your stance that this is just all way above us? I’m good with that. That's kinda my stance.

Exploring New Testament Relevance

My second question is this. The most recent program I watched was Episode 462. I completely understand your line of thought concerning the New Testament having cultural guidelines that we do NOT follow. I also understand that you do not approve of cherry picking doctrines listed in NT while discarding others. I'm with you. But the New Testament is relevant to TRUTH and daily living. Did I misunderstand you when you said that it was not? I took your stance to mean that it is not the strict and only guidelines to how to run a church meeting?

I hope that you cherish the New Testament and hold is as truth that is relevant today.

Views on Love and Acceptance

My last question is this. Your talk about anyone who loves Jesus is our brother/sister and should be accepted. I agree that we should love. Love is my foundation also. But what you described on the episode was VERY close to a critical talk you gave against Joel Osteen. You imitated him (which was all in good fun – I know that you were not being mean) but you scolded him when he defended Mitt Romney. "Shawn takes on Joel Osteen" 3 years ago.

So have your views changed toward what Joel Osteen is teaching. Love. Love for Jesus. How are you different? I'm assuming you are? Again after watching Episode 462,if you were my buddy I'd laugh and say, "Mccraney, you owe Osteen an apology!"

So there are my questions. These are all asked with sincerity. I like your show. I believe God uses you especially in the ministry to LDS. When I spoke to the LDS Sisters (who are under COMPLETE BONDAGE) about the Love of Christ, I did warn them about what Paul taught about preaching another Jesus. That is exactly what Joseph Smith did! Paul warned that another gospel should not be accepted except the Grace found in Christ. So where I do love that you want God to lead us and not man, I do believe the Spirit give us clear understanding in scripture to hold fast to clear Truths. I believe we, as flesh and blood men, should share this in love.

So I understand you wanting us to love the LDS, homosexual, Muslim, because I absolutely do!!! I have friends in all of these categories. But I stick to the non-negotiable truths I believe are in the word (which are few) and I urge my friends to consider. Not in a cult like way. But in a Jesus led way… much like he did with the woman at the well.

I look forward to hearing from you or your staff.

Ken