Faith without religion.
Navigating the Nuances: Understanding the Purpose of Tongues and Prophecy
tongues, prophecy, authenticity
In this engaging discussion, Shawn and Delaney delve into the complexities of 1 Corinthians 14, focusing on the use of tongues and prophecy within the church. They explore the Apostle Paul’s teachings, emphasizing the importance of understanding and edification in public worship. Shawn highlights the chaos that can ensue when tongues are used without interpretation, drawing parallels to modern charismatic practices. The conversation shifts to the significance of meaning in religious dialogue, critiquing rote recitations that lack genuine understanding.
Shawn and Delaney also discuss the evolving concept of sin, contrasting its Old Testament definition with its current interpretation as a failure to love and walk in faith. They emphasize the importance of authenticity in teaching and the challenges of conveying complex spiritual truths in a way that resonates with listeners. The dialogue underscores the necessity of speaking honestly and meaningfully, rather than relying on rehearsed arguments, to foster genuine understanding and spiritual growth. Through their conversation, they advocate for a more nuanced and authentic approach to faith, encouraging believers to focus on love and faith as the new commandments in their spiritual journey.
Podcast Transcript:
I don’t get the Bible with Delany and
Shan this is part two of chapter 14 of
first
corinthus very good um last episode
about
tongues this might be a little bit more
too
um we should pick up around verse 15
he’s saying so what shall I do I pray
with my spirit but I also pray with
understanding um otherwise when you are
pray praising God in the spirit how can
someone else who is now put in the
position of an Inquirer say Amen to your
Thanksgiving since they don’t know what
you’re saying you’re giving thanks well
enough but no one else is
edified um that kind of counters what I
feel like you just said in the last yeah
because he’s talking about if you do
what I just described in a public place
nobody’s going to be able to interpret
what the heck you mean praying publicly
so he just in the last episode he gave a
example of how praying in tongues
personally might happen today but um to
just pray in the same way you just
described publicly it would be like I
don’t understand what’s going on and if
you go into any Charismatic Church
Pentecostal Church you’re going to see a
time where everybody starts doing that
it’s pure chaos yeah they all start
babbling yeah by the way in the LA when
you described the last
in the last episode how you pray in
tongues you would say you don’t
necessarily have an understanding of it
do you or do you have a better
understanding of praying in tongues of
of the prayer like he says in the
previous like he prays with his Spirit
but also his understanding what you have
a better understanding of is what you
should pray for there’s a there’s a pass
remember and this was in the time of the
spirit’s
they’re getting together and they don’t
know what’s happening right but when you
are doing that the thoughts of your
heart or the thoughts God wants to put
in your mind come forward and the
scripture says we don’t even know what
to pray for you don’t even know it’s
there suddenly you’re praying
for
uh Larry’s Grandma you don’t even know
her and it’s coming out and you’re not
you’re Larry’s Grandma you know I’m just
bringing I’m making stuff up because
you’re not cognitively trying to think
it is just coming out and so when all of
that comes out it serves as kind of this
release of your
subconscious and and or of things God
wants you to think about and that you
have a perfect knowledge of that yeah
that’s all it is you understand what’s
in your mind coming out from you okay
that’s
interesting very yeah
um okay but once again it’s you’re
giving thanks well enough but no one
else is edified like there’s such
a specific valuation of what is
happening at that time like and Paul is
barely dead on not helping anybody here
yeah I wondered here
um when people
who are like liter literalists like the
ratio Christi students that will come
when they speak he’s talking here about
meaning being really important like if
you’re just saying stuff and it doesn’t
mean anything there’s no use of that
like edification is I don’t really know
what that word means edification it
means to Enlighten people okay so
meaning that leads to edification is
important and when they they speak I do
not there’s no meaning it feels like
like there’s they’re rehearsing words
like so quickly and
like
robotically and it feels like you’re
trying to communicate them through
meaning purely without words and they’re
TR it’s like the opposite it just seemed
like that was a that like was correlated
yeah I mean that’s why I think we need
to try to avoid as much as we can in
religious
dialogue um wrote
arguments uh reciting what you’ve
learned and to just speak honestly yeah
and I try to tell those groups I want
you to be honest I don’t care about
trying to win yeah you know if you want
to just win then you’re just going to
start citing chapter and verse and and
church fathers just tell me what you
think yeah that’s the only way we’re
going to get
yeah the thing
that’s that is missing is that when they
say something there is an
expectation that this thing I’m saying
means this but it doesn’t necessarily
mean what they think it means like right
and so you find it Hollow you don’t well
to it it doesn’t it isn’t H like honest
is
this verse says this it means this and
it’s like that’s where the conversation
is like no it doesn’t mean that you have
to like draw that out they have to say
something and you have to be like well
what does that mean and they’re like it
means this and you’re like why do you
think it means it doesn’t mean that it
means this and they’re like but it so
there’s an assumption that I see and I
feel like that I I don’t know why but I
feel like
that’s principally something Rel related
to speaking in
tongues don’t you think like sense
communicating through meaning it’s like
you’re
almost
translating with them something I think
that makes that’s a great application
and there’s no reason that that wouldn’t
make sense well I don’t know I love it I
love that
um okay so then I thank God that I speak
in Tong wait I thank God I speak in
tongues more than all of you but in the
church I’d rather speak five intell
intelligible words to instruct others
than 10,000 words in a tongue so Paul
says that so that means when he’s out in
the world he speaks tongues more than
all of them so he can trans he can speak
in the language of the people and in his
private prayer life he does it more than
them but when he’s in the church I’d
rather just Pro prophesy or teach and
speak plainly so it’s a
direct thing in that to the churches I
don’t know why today we have churches
full of these bethl my God bethl people
bethl people be
people be
people speak Beal people in tongues
that’s almost an anania be people be
people it’s really just yeah it even for
the people at that time it does not make
sense to do tongues the way that we do
it now no let alone today
there is no purpose for them at
all um brothers and sisters stop stop
thinking like children in regards the
evil be in infants but in your thinking
be adults in the law it’s written with
other tongues and through the lips of
foreigners I will speak to this people
but even then they will not listen to me
says the Lord tongues then are signs not
for believers but for unbelievers
prophecy however is not for unbelievers
but for believers so tongues they’re not
for what unbelievers no tongues are not
for not for believers belever right so
you go into a church it’s full of
Believers and they do tongues yeah
doesn’t make sense yeah so the miracle
of tongues would be you walk among a
bunch of
Corinthians and and you’re talking in
your dialect Englishmen and you suddenly
you start speaking sth they can to be
like you speak our language they’re
unbelievers you’re speaking their
language that’s a sign to them okay
that’s how the tongues work wait
I had it backward tongues not for
believers but for unbelievers right okay
yeah that would be a Mir that is how the
church would grow in that day for
somebody to visit who’s never been
speaking that language that’s why Paul
says I’ve done it more than anybody else
and to suddenly be able to be fluent
with them we’ve lost that and he’s
telling them that like At first I
thought he was telling them that to say
tongues are less important
because they’re for unbelievers oh no
that’s not necessarily true no he’s just
saying it’s yeah there’s no reason for
believers to to to do to do that yeah
and he’s writing this letter to
Believers so he’s saying you shouldn’t
be okay I see um and he also Likens it
to being immature yeah stop thinking
like
children um and I think he’s saying stop
getting together in your church and
doing this with each other you know
you’re being children grow up yeah okay
um so if the whole church comes together
and everyone speaks in tongues and
inquires or unbelievers come in will
they not say that you’re out of your
mind but if an unbeliever an inquir
comes in while everyone’s prophesying
they are convinced of a sin and are
brought under judgment by
all this is where I had it backward if
an unbeliever comes in while everyone’s
prophesying they’re convicted of sin
right so that means that prophecy is for
the unbeliever yeah well if they come in
the church though if they come in and
witness the church doing that with each
other
yeah so Pro so tongues are not for the
believer and prophecy is for the
unbeliever because if your Prophet is
for the believer okay yeah and if you
are doing prophecy teaching by the
spirit to a bunch of
Believers and an unbeliever comes in
they’ll plainly hear what you’re saying
and they’ll be convicted of sin okay
that makes sense that it’s teaching then
because it’s like that’s why they
interpret prophecy as teaching okay
that’s that’s the internal evidence by
how they do it okay um as the seet of
their hearts are laid bare they will
fall down and worship God exclaiming God
is really among you okay so there is
where the Prophecy part
comes this happens a lot too by the way
I’ll be teaching and this is not to say
that I’m a prophet or have the gift of
Prophecy but I’ll be teaching on a
subject this happened with Cassidy the
other day and she called me after and
goes you are talking to me I said I
didn’t even think of you wow yeah and
that’s what happens is that’s how it’s
prophecy you’re speaking of something
that no the only person who knows is the
individual and they’re like yeah and
they’ll come up you are talking and I’m
I’m just talking I’m just teaching I
don’t know what’s going on in your life
and so and somebody who’s in adultery
who hasn’t been coming to church steps
into the church and they hear a message
on adultery they’re convicted yeah yeah
that’s how it’s a
prophetic tie to teaching that happens
so much but I also I ALS I feel like
that happens because when you’re just
talking about
the spirit and belief and faith and love
you’re going to be convicted of the
thing that you’re guilty of no matter
what it is yeah no matter what and it’s
so and and you’re seeing that very
pragmatically and and realistically you
could do any sermon on any subject and
everybody in there is going to feel
guilty yeah yeah it’s a universal truth
but that’s why
it’s that’s why it’s so spiritually
useful like the use like it’s the only
only thing you can talk about where
everyone’s going to feel convicted at in
their own way yeah um and so people
don’t come to church that teach the
Bible because they walk away like bad
religion says feeling
condemned and you can’t help but so what
happens is churches don’t want people to
leave feeling bad because they don’t
come back so they soften the message
they don’t teach the Bible they teach
other things in Jesus make them feel
good and I’ve never been about that
because the the best medicine for people
is what will kill cancer yeah yeah and
and so it it bothers me when people will
build religious Empires off feeling good
wow it’s like the comparison of
radiation versus like morphine or
something yes exactly feel good while
it’s killing you or
and that’s more and more lost because
people do not want to feel their sin so
they’re not going to go to a place where
it is exposed to them and so church is
on the decline yeah and this is how you
approached Adam’s Road video but the
thing that’s
misconstrued is that you care about the
sin
and you’re called hypocritical for
calling that out so how is it different
like you want to kill it in them but
you’re not saying you judge them for it
at the same yeah it’s like someone
coming into a doctor’s office who’s full
of cancer I can’t I can’t judge you for
having cancer well you you do have
cancer like you you say you have cancer
you have cancer it’s not that you don’t
have cancer because you judge it yeah if
I if I was I would be a terrible doctor
if they had cancer and I said you’re
fine yeah yeah because it’s out of love
for the patient right and mine is out of
a spiritual sense it’s not out of a who
you are as a human being right because
everybody has the sin okay but with the
Adam’s Road thing when you have somebody
who pretends that they are holy collects
money and does it secretly that’s called
hypoc religious hypocrisy he’s going to
get a double dose of that okay so but
and then in
fulfillment I I’ve heard discussions
where it’s like sin doesn’t exist
anymore does not
so what are you calling out with
something like Adam hypocrisy right
failing to walk in faith and failing to
walk in love so what but like okay then
outside of Adam’s Road you’re giving a a
teaching on Sundays and someone comes in
and they’re convicted
yeah is that of their hypocrisy
no it’s of their failing to walk in
faith and failing to uh walk in love but
it’s manifested by the sin in their life
we don’t call it sin because it’s been
paid for okay you don’t have to worry
about that but they know what’s in them
and so that causes them to reflect and
they come to me and they say you were
talking I feel so bad because I’ve been
doing this thing right and then the
response to a pastor should be the
reason you’re doing that thing is
because your faith is not strong yeah
and you’re failing to love because your
faith is not strong as your faith
increases your love will increase and
you’ll overcome that thing okay but but
what most churches do is they say that’s
a sin you need to be and that’s not true
okay so sin at one point
Sorry sin at one point had was defined
as certain actions yes okay missing the
Mark is is what it means okay and the
Mark was sin was defined as missing the
mark and the Mark was defined as living
a very specific way yes materially how
the law with the law depicted you will
not do this you will not do that okay
and then today sin manifests as like a
failure a failure to love and to walk in
faith which is also missing the mark it
is missing the mark but it’s not a sin
of uh it’s new Mark it’s a different
Mark yeah yeah the Mark has changed cuz
the Commandments are different the law
is different in what we have now than
what it was in the Old Testament okay
the law is to believe and love okay
that’s that’s been a confusing like
there is still the principle of missing
the mark which is how you Define sin so
sin still is a thing in a way but it’s
just that the Mark is very different
yeah and the sin that we typically think
of sin has been paid for right so sin
missing the mark before different Mark
and had
consequences today missing the Mark had
it had consequences eternally right
today missing the Mark just has
consequences in your life that’s right
but not okay not eternally because God’s
forgiven those okay yeah but what God
doesn’t forgive is your free will to
have faith and to
love that is that’s why that is the sin
because it’s the new law he doesn’t
forgive your free will is that what you
say no he doesn’t forgive your free will
to uh to not pursue Faith you choose to
not pursue Faith that’s not forgivable
until you choose to
believe that does not seem like what you
teach that’s because we’ve never really
talked about it
but it it works like this Jesus said the
un you can do anything you want against
me yeah but when you go against the Holy
Spirit that’s not forgivable in this
life or in the life to come that’s The
Unforgiven unforgivable sin the
unpardonable sin is to not listen to the
Holy Spirit now the holy spirit’s job is
to get you to believe okay and the holy
spirit’s job is to get you to love so
when someone says I’m not going to
believe and I’m not going to love that’s
unforgivable until they believe and
until they start to love see and so we
have a new commandment it’s to love and
if you choose to not love that is not
forgiven in because that’s the sin okay
but what’s the consequence of not being
forgiven being outside the kingdom okay
that’s where like it seems if you like
diagram one and diagram the other
they’re the same they see the places and
the definitions of the things have
changed have changed yeah and that’s
like a big deal like outside could I
mean could outside the kingdom be
burning forever no what I think Burns
forever is inside the kingdom and if you
want to get in it you’re going to burn
okay yeah yeah see these things are all
dicey and but they’re all the same so
when I say there is no sin people think
oh we just do what you want it’s not
that yeah it’s that that there’s been a
shift in the game yeah and all the stuff
of our flesh brought on by Adam sin and
our falling that’s done that’s why when
people say can a homosexual go to
practicing homosexual go to hell of
course yeah well no no the Bible said no
look it you’re not seeing context yeah
you get it
yeah yes it’s not easy is it yeah and I
feel
like your plight is that you is your T
tactic for teaching this like
you it’s really semantic in a lot it’s
not like there’s a there’s concrete
differences but you present it in a way
that so that people will question
it I feel like and and but I’m doing my
job the way I’m led to do and the way
I’m led to be for someone else to come
along and to clarify those things for
sure and that’s what you’re doing for
sure like plight not being a bad thing
it’s just that is like I feel like you
don’t get to reap the rewards because
you’re presenting it like artfully in a
way that yeah also demonstrates it it’s
like the the lack of clarity is
intentional yes it has to be because for
me to in uh describe it with the clarity
that’s needed would require me to be
inauthentic
yeah yeah yes yeah and I can’t do and if
I do that then I’m both playing religion
and I’m not being myself and I’m not
being what God meant me to be yeah and
by being what I’m meant to be then I
will allow myself not to be a success
because I realize that it comes with
authenticity comes a not being able to
reach all people yes but I do trust that
what we’re planting will take root yeah
it’s authentic for the sake of it’s it’s
by far the most successful because it’s
authentic and will be the most
successful for that reason but I do try
to explain the nuances but I can’t I
don’t know how to do it in a in a way
that is true to how I am yeah I’m I I
hope that wasn’t offensive not at all
it’s very it’s actually on the nose and
it’s appreciated you didn’t have to rub
your nose when I touched my nose I
touched my nose and you touch your nose
mean too
the
uh
um no it’s so clear it’s like you you’re
just speaking you speak so clearly and
there’s certain people that totally hear
it and I again it’s like I don’t think
it’s I think I’m like mostly just
talking about um in exchanges yeah like
in debates or something it’s not your
teachings it’s your approach with people
well there’s a reason for that too is
because I am also
anticipating where they’re going to come
from and so what I do is I cut that off
at the past right so that they because I
I’ve done it enough where I know so it’s
kind of a pmic in a way to keep them
working yeah um but if we are operating
by the spirit of Yeshua he I mean how
many times did he say something people
didn’t even know what the hell he was
talking about totally and that Spirit
leads to
having to be clear on things in a way
that obscures so much yeah yeah yeah and
people
today with like the age of information
or whatever like do not
understand that tactic they think it’s
Artful yeah like they think you need to
be way overly dactic
but but being that way doesn’t get to
the point like you’re getting at the
meaning you’re teaching the meaning
which is circles back to this chapter
which is like the purpose is meaning
like if you’re just recite they’re just
reciting words like they can there are
people that can explain to their death
the cultural context of the Bible and
all this but like there’s no meaning
behind it that’s why what you’re doing
is so right we want it to be
handson yeah yeah right good and it
takes a it
takes having the disposition of wanting
that to hear it people just don’t hear
it otherwise and when they are ready to
and they have the disposition to they
will yeah and that seems like a
universal thing that’s talked about even
in Bible times like you’re just people
are going to hear it or they won’t
that’s right so you have to do it
authentically cuz if you change that
it’s going to they still won’t hear it
we’ll have inauthentic hearers yeah
inauthentic hearers yeah and you’ll
still have the problem of a people not
certain people not hearing it and yeah
and then the people you do have it’s
it’s the wrong people
so good stuff clar
clarified there’s about 10 more verses
left and how many more minutes we’re
pasted let’s do one more okay it’s not
there there’s not much but we’ll see
okay bye bye
